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	<title>Comments on: Reformation or Repentance?</title>
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	<description>...declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost.</description>
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		<title>By: Rob Osborn</title>
		<link>http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/01/reformation-or-repentance/comment-page-1/#comment-38</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Osborn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:19:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/01/reformation-or-repentance/#comment-38</guid>
		<description>This is something I have long pondered over- the plan of salvation. The plan of salvation does two specific things. 1. It saves us from our spiritually fallen condition which leads us away from the second death. 2. It enables us to be washed clean so that we can live with god in his kingdom in eternity. This is where my pondering has came up with a unique problem with our doctrine.

Thie problem is this- It is only through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel that man can escape the chains of hell. And, by that very obedience he qualifies himself to enter into the celestial kingdom. So where do the telestial and terrestrial kingdom fit in then? According to St. John the divine in his Revelations, he sees in vision the celestial kingdom of God where the saved do dwell. What is particular about all of his revelations is that there is only the celestial kingdom and outer darkness in the end. Some might say that the three kingdoms were not revealed to him and such, but in doing so it kind of makes his revelations pointless and not really visionary doctrine (truthful doctrine).

There are also times when the Lord speaks this same tune, some of which even comes after section 76 (read D&amp;C 84:74). Damned in that verse specifically refers to the condemnation of hell. In that verse and many other like it, salvation only comes to the obedient and to everyone who receives salvation they return to where the Father dwells in his kingdom.

The temple endowment reveals something about the two lower kingdoms- they are not eternal destinations like we have thought, but instead are mere stages for man to progress through to reach his destination in the celestial kingdom. The two lower kingdoms exist to enable man to reach his destination in the celestial kingdom.

Why don&#039;t people understand the ramifications of the temple teachings on our current doctrine? If doctrine evolves, why hasn&#039;t this doctrine as found in the temple taken hold? Is it because of the fear associated with discussing sacred doctrine outside of the temple? Or is it that we just haven&#039;t figured it out because there is no standard for teaching the temple doctrine outside of the temple?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is something I have long pondered over- the plan of salvation. The plan of salvation does two specific things. 1. It saves us from our spiritually fallen condition which leads us away from the second death. 2. It enables us to be washed clean so that we can live with god in his kingdom in eternity. This is where my pondering has came up with a unique problem with our doctrine.</p>
<p>Thie problem is this- It is only through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel that man can escape the chains of hell. And, by that very obedience he qualifies himself to enter into the celestial kingdom. So where do the telestial and terrestrial kingdom fit in then? According to St. John the divine in his Revelations, he sees in vision the celestial kingdom of God where the saved do dwell. What is particular about all of his revelations is that there is only the celestial kingdom and outer darkness in the end. Some might say that the three kingdoms were not revealed to him and such, but in doing so it kind of makes his revelations pointless and not really visionary doctrine (truthful doctrine).</p>
<p>There are also times when the Lord speaks this same tune, some of which even comes after section 76 (read D&amp;C 84:74). Damned in that verse specifically refers to the condemnation of hell. In that verse and many other like it, salvation only comes to the obedient and to everyone who receives salvation they return to where the Father dwells in his kingdom.</p>
<p>The temple endowment reveals something about the two lower kingdoms- they are not eternal destinations like we have thought, but instead are mere stages for man to progress through to reach his destination in the celestial kingdom. The two lower kingdoms exist to enable man to reach his destination in the celestial kingdom.</p>
<p>Why don&#8217;t people understand the ramifications of the temple teachings on our current doctrine? If doctrine evolves, why hasn&#8217;t this doctrine as found in the temple taken hold? Is it because of the fear associated with discussing sacred doctrine outside of the temple? Or is it that we just haven&#8217;t figured it out because there is no standard for teaching the temple doctrine outside of the temple?</p>
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		<title>By: Jared</title>
		<link>http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/01/reformation-or-repentance/comment-page-1/#comment-37</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:33:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/01/reformation-or-repentance/#comment-37</guid>
		<description>Rob- good discussion

So much of what happens in this live depends on what we did in the pre-mortal world of spirits (see Alma 13). There are 3 degrees of glory for a reason, and that reason is God&#039;s perfect love for His children (Mormon 9:4 indirectly refers to this).

In my opinion, everyone will eventually be given the maximum opportunity to hear the plan of salvation. No one will be able to say they were neglected or treated unfairly. Just the opposite will occur, &quot;every knee shall bow&quot; (Mosiah 27:31, D&amp;C 76:110, 88:104).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob- good discussion</p>
<p>So much of what happens in this live depends on what we did in the pre-mortal world of spirits (see Alma 13). There are 3 degrees of glory for a reason, and that reason is God&#8217;s perfect love for His children (Mormon 9:4 indirectly refers to this).</p>
<p>In my opinion, everyone will eventually be given the maximum opportunity to hear the plan of salvation. No one will be able to say they were neglected or treated unfairly. Just the opposite will occur, &#8220;every knee shall bow&#8221; (Mosiah 27:31, D&amp;C 76:110, 88:104).</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Osborn</title>
		<link>http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/01/reformation-or-repentance/comment-page-1/#comment-36</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Osborn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 05:24:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/01/reformation-or-repentance/#comment-36</guid>
		<description>I agree that once a man charts a coarse leading to eternal life and proceeds in that path- he will attain it. I see the scriptures discussing more of an end result of what type of people the &quot;saved&quot; become. People can and do come from all walks of life and as such, some have more problems than others and thus lead more sinful lives. But do they do this with a full knowledge of the gospel and who Jesus Christ is and what his message is? Doubtful. It is this reason alone that I sometimes wonder what will happen with people once they truly understand their fallen condition and their strained relationship with righteousness, many of which will not come to this conclusion until after death.

I think there is more to it- it isn&#039;t all cut and dried. God&#039;s plan is way better than we give him credit for. How many will receive eternal life in the end? Will it be few or will it be many when compared against all of the earths inhabitants that ever lived. Let me ask this- Who did Christ come into the world to save? Those who believe on his name.

Everyone who is saved is the very person in the end who have fixed their coarse towards godliness- they are the only ones that can be saved. They are the only ones who repent and enter in by the way that leads to eternal life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that once a man charts a coarse leading to eternal life and proceeds in that path- he will attain it. I see the scriptures discussing more of an end result of what type of people the &#8220;saved&#8221; become. People can and do come from all walks of life and as such, some have more problems than others and thus lead more sinful lives. But do they do this with a full knowledge of the gospel and who Jesus Christ is and what his message is? Doubtful. It is this reason alone that I sometimes wonder what will happen with people once they truly understand their fallen condition and their strained relationship with righteousness, many of which will not come to this conclusion until after death.</p>
<p>I think there is more to it- it isn&#8217;t all cut and dried. God&#8217;s plan is way better than we give him credit for. How many will receive eternal life in the end? Will it be few or will it be many when compared against all of the earths inhabitants that ever lived. Let me ask this- Who did Christ come into the world to save? Those who believe on his name.</p>
<p>Everyone who is saved is the very person in the end who have fixed their coarse towards godliness- they are the only ones that can be saved. They are the only ones who repent and enter in by the way that leads to eternal life.</p>
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		<title>By: Jared</title>
		<link>http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/01/reformation-or-repentance/comment-page-1/#comment-35</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:56:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/01/reformation-or-repentance/#comment-35</guid>
		<description>Rob-my answer to your two part question is reliance on basic doctrine. The Lord has given us Apostles and Prophets to guide us and interpret  scripture. With that in mind I&#039;ll share two of my favorite Elder McConkie quotes:

Bruce R. McConkie, Ensign, Nov. 1974, p 33-35

To be valiant in the testimony of Jesus is to come unto Christ, and be perfected in him; it is to deny ourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all our might. ...it is to take the Lord&#039;s side on every issue. It is to vote as he would vote. It is to think what he thinks, to believe what he believes, to say what he would say and do what he would do in the same situation. It is to have the mind of Christ and be one with him as he is one with his father.&quot;

Go &lt;a href=&quot;http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&amp;locale=0&amp;sourceId=afe861cb2b86b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&amp;hideNav=1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here&lt;/a&gt; 
&lt;/a&gt; for the entire talk
-----------------------------------------------

Bruce R. McConkie, Sermons and Writings of Bruce R. McConkie, 54. 

As members of the Church, if we chart a course leading to eternal life; if we begin the process of spiritual rebirth, and are going in the right direction; if we chart a course of sanctifying our souls, and degree by degree are going in that direction; and if we chart a course of becoming perfect, and, step by step and phase by phase, are perfecting our souls by overcoming the world, then it is absolutely guaranteed—there is no question whatever about it—we shall gain eternal life. Even though we have spiritual rebirth ahead of us, perfection ahead of us, the full degree of sanctification ahead of us, if we chart a course and follow it to the best of our ability in this life, then when we go out of this life we&#039;ll continue in exactly that same course. We will no longer be subject to the passions and the appetites of the flesh. We will have passed successfully the tests of this mortal probation and in due course we&#039;ll get the fulness of our Father&#039;s kingdom—and that means eternal life in his everlasting presence.
_____________________</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob-my answer to your two part question is reliance on basic doctrine. The Lord has given us Apostles and Prophets to guide us and interpret  scripture. With that in mind I&#8217;ll share two of my favorite Elder McConkie quotes:</p>
<p>Bruce R. McConkie, Ensign, Nov. 1974, p 33-35</p>
<p>To be valiant in the testimony of Jesus is to come unto Christ, and be perfected in him; it is to deny ourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all our might. &#8230;it is to take the Lord&#8217;s side on every issue. It is to vote as he would vote. It is to think what he thinks, to believe what he believes, to say what he would say and do what he would do in the same situation. It is to have the mind of Christ and be one with him as he is one with his father.&#8221;</p>
<p>Go <a href="http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&#038;locale=0&#038;sourceId=afe861cb2b86b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&#038;hideNav=1" rel="nofollow">Here</a><br />
 for the entire talk<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</p>
<p>Bruce R. McConkie, Sermons and Writings of Bruce R. McConkie, 54. </p>
<p>As members of the Church, if we chart a course leading to eternal life; if we begin the process of spiritual rebirth, and are going in the right direction; if we chart a course of sanctifying our souls, and degree by degree are going in that direction; and if we chart a course of becoming perfect, and, step by step and phase by phase, are perfecting our souls by overcoming the world, then it is absolutely guaranteed—there is no question whatever about it—we shall gain eternal life. Even though we have spiritual rebirth ahead of us, perfection ahead of us, the full degree of sanctification ahead of us, if we chart a course and follow it to the best of our ability in this life, then when we go out of this life we&#8217;ll continue in exactly that same course. We will no longer be subject to the passions and the appetites of the flesh. We will have passed successfully the tests of this mortal probation and in due course we&#8217;ll get the fulness of our Father&#8217;s kingdom—and that means eternal life in his everlasting presence.<br />
_____________________</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Osborn</title>
		<link>http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/01/reformation-or-repentance/comment-page-1/#comment-34</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Osborn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:15:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/01/reformation-or-repentance/#comment-34</guid>
		<description>Or, another angle-

Suppose section 76 and section 29 and the BoM are all correct but that our interpretation of them is incorrect, especially section 76 in light of the later revelation concerning the temple endowment?.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or, another angle-</p>
<p>Suppose section 76 and section 29 and the BoM are all correct but that our interpretation of them is incorrect, especially section 76 in light of the later revelation concerning the temple endowment?.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Osborn</title>
		<link>http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/01/reformation-or-repentance/comment-page-1/#comment-33</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Osborn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:11:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/01/reformation-or-repentance/#comment-33</guid>
		<description>OK, I can agree somewhat to that. So, what about the temple ceremony where it further explains the three kingdoms where the lower two (the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms/ worlds)kingdoms are explained that they are worlds we progress through as part of the plan and path of our salvation instead of assignment after judgment? Under the line upon line precept, wouldn&#039;t the temple teachings suggest that the three kingdom doctrine had evolved to this point where they were finally fully understood to mean kingdoms before judgment except for the celestial which would be an eternal kingdom?

The Telestial and terrestrial worlds/ kingdoms, as explained by the temple endowment is the earth in it&#039;s progression to becoming the celestial and we too must progress through these kingdoms before we are accounted as spotless in the celestial. The telestial kingdom according to the temple is this earth right now.

So, if doctrine can evolve, and the endowment was given after section 76, wouldn&#039;t the temple doctrine be most correct concerning the meaning of the kingdoms?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, I can agree somewhat to that. So, what about the temple ceremony where it further explains the three kingdoms where the lower two (the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms/ worlds)kingdoms are explained that they are worlds we progress through as part of the plan and path of our salvation instead of assignment after judgment? Under the line upon line precept, wouldn&#8217;t the temple teachings suggest that the three kingdom doctrine had evolved to this point where they were finally fully understood to mean kingdoms before judgment except for the celestial which would be an eternal kingdom?</p>
<p>The Telestial and terrestrial worlds/ kingdoms, as explained by the temple endowment is the earth in it&#8217;s progression to becoming the celestial and we too must progress through these kingdoms before we are accounted as spotless in the celestial. The telestial kingdom according to the temple is this earth right now.</p>
<p>So, if doctrine can evolve, and the endowment was given after section 76, wouldn&#8217;t the temple doctrine be most correct concerning the meaning of the kingdoms?</p>
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		<title>By: Jared</title>
		<link>http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/01/reformation-or-repentance/comment-page-1/#comment-32</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:21:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/01/reformation-or-repentance/#comment-32</guid>
		<description>Rob--good question. D&amp;C 29 came before D&amp;C 76. To me that would mean that Joseph understood these doctrines like the Book of Mormon prophets. 

The idea of, line upon line and precepts upon precepts infers that doctrine evolves. The ninth Article of Faith expresses the same thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob&#8211;good question. D&amp;C 29 came before D&amp;C 76. To me that would mean that Joseph understood these doctrines like the Book of Mormon prophets. </p>
<p>The idea of, line upon line and precepts upon precepts infers that doctrine evolves. The ninth Article of Faith expresses the same thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Osborn</title>
		<link>http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/01/reformation-or-repentance/comment-page-1/#comment-31</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Osborn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:16:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/01/reformation-or-repentance/#comment-31</guid>
		<description>What about Latter day prophets Such as Joseph Smith? It seems as if latter day scripture also agrees with the Book of Mormon-

27  And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
28  Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

(Doctrine and Covenants &#124; Section 29:27 - 28)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about Latter day prophets Such as Joseph Smith? It seems as if latter day scripture also agrees with the Book of Mormon-</p>
<p>27  And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;<br />
28  Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.</p>
<p>(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 29:27 &#8211; 28)</p>
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		<title>By: Jared</title>
		<link>http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/01/reformation-or-repentance/comment-page-1/#comment-30</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:14:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/01/reformation-or-repentance/#comment-30</guid>
		<description>Rob--thank you for your comment.

A few thoughts in response--I understand the Book of Mormon speaks from the prospective of exaltation or perdition. The prophets of that day did not have the added knowledge we have today about degrees of glory. The scripture you quoted clearly shows this.

As you know D&amp;C 76 refers to those who miss out on the celestial kingdom saying:

&quot;These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God. 
D&amp;C 76:79

Also President John Taylor said:

We have gathered here that we may learn those laws, the laws of God, the laws of life, and prepare ourselves under His guidance for an inheritance in the Celestial Kingdom of God. But are all the Latter-day Saints going into that kingdom? No. How is that? It is just as Jesus declared. &quot;It is not every one that sayeth Lord, Lord, that will enter into the Kingdom of God, but he that doeth the will of the Father who is in heaven.&quot; Did Jesus come to do the will of His Father in heaven? He did, and He expects all who aim at Celestial glory to do the same, and if they do not they will not get there. He says, &quot;Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?&quot; And He will say unto them, &quot;Depart from me, ye workers of iniquity, I know you not, you have not lived as becometh Saints.&quot; Oh, say some, that don&#039;t mean the Saints. No, it don&#039;t, but it means many who profess to be Saints…The Lord will say to them, &quot;Depart from me, I never knew you;&quot; for it is not every one that sayeth Lord, Lord, that shall enter into the Kingdom of God, but He that doeth the will of our Father in Heaven.

&quot;Discourse by President John Taylor, October 6-7, 1884,&quot; in Journal of Discourses, vol. 25, 307-308.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob&#8211;thank you for your comment.</p>
<p>A few thoughts in response&#8211;I understand the Book of Mormon speaks from the prospective of exaltation or perdition. The prophets of that day did not have the added knowledge we have today about degrees of glory. The scripture you quoted clearly shows this.</p>
<p>As you know D&amp;C 76 refers to those who miss out on the celestial kingdom saying:</p>
<p>&#8220;These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.<br />
D&amp;C 76:79</p>
<p>Also President John Taylor said:</p>
<p>We have gathered here that we may learn those laws, the laws of God, the laws of life, and prepare ourselves under His guidance for an inheritance in the Celestial Kingdom of God. But are all the Latter-day Saints going into that kingdom? No. How is that? It is just as Jesus declared. &#8220;It is not every one that sayeth Lord, Lord, that will enter into the Kingdom of God, but he that doeth the will of the Father who is in heaven.&#8221; Did Jesus come to do the will of His Father in heaven? He did, and He expects all who aim at Celestial glory to do the same, and if they do not they will not get there. He says, &#8220;Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?&#8221; And He will say unto them, &#8220;Depart from me, ye workers of iniquity, I know you not, you have not lived as becometh Saints.&#8221; Oh, say some, that don&#8217;t mean the Saints. No, it don&#8217;t, but it means many who profess to be Saints…The Lord will say to them, &#8220;Depart from me, I never knew you;&#8221; for it is not every one that sayeth Lord, Lord, that shall enter into the Kingdom of God, but He that doeth the will of our Father in Heaven.</p>
<p>&#8220;Discourse by President John Taylor, October 6-7, 1884,&#8221; in Journal of Discourses, vol. 25, 307-308.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Osborn</title>
		<link>http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/01/reformation-or-repentance/comment-page-1/#comment-29</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Osborn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 06:51:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/01/reformation-or-repentance/#comment-29</guid>
		<description>Hey great post- good homework and all.

Not to put a dampner in your light or anything but, your reference of [2] to me doesn&#039;t make sense. Those who Christ says to depart and that he never knew are not the terrestrials but the sons of perdition. The cross reference is -

25  And it shall come to pass that when the second trump shall sound then shall they that never knew me come forth and shall stand before me.
26  And then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, that I am their Redeemer; but they would not be redeemed.
27  And then I will confess unto them that I never knew them; and they shall depart into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

(Book of Mormon &#124; Mosiah 26:25 - 27)

Personally I like to think that we will all be saved together in the Celestial kingdom escepting only the sons of perdition, but hey, thats just my own belief!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey great post- good homework and all.</p>
<p>Not to put a dampner in your light or anything but, your reference of [2] to me doesn&#8217;t make sense. Those who Christ says to depart and that he never knew are not the terrestrials but the sons of perdition. The cross reference is -</p>
<p>25  And it shall come to pass that when the second trump shall sound then shall they that never knew me come forth and shall stand before me.<br />
26  And then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, that I am their Redeemer; but they would not be redeemed.<br />
27  And then I will confess unto them that I never knew them; and they shall depart into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.</p>
<p>(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 26:25 &#8211; 27)</p>
<p>Personally I like to think that we will all be saved together in the Celestial kingdom escepting only the sons of perdition, but hey, thats just my own belief!</p>
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