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	<title>Comments on: For What Doth It Profit A Man If A Gift Is Bestowed Upon Him, And He Receive Not The Gift?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/11/for-what-doth-it-profit-a-man-if-a-gift-is-bestowed-upon-him-and-he-receive-not-the-gift/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/11/for-what-doth-it-profit-a-man-if-a-gift-is-bestowed-upon-him-and-he-receive-not-the-gift/</link>
	<description>...declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost.</description>
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		<title>By: Living Below our Spiritual Privileges &#171; Cheryl&#39;s Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/11/for-what-doth-it-profit-a-man-if-a-gift-is-bestowed-upon-him-and-he-receive-not-the-gift/comment-page-1/#comment-2131</link>
		<dc:creator>Living Below our Spiritual Privileges &#171; Cheryl&#39;s Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 16:11:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jared</title>
		<link>http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/11/for-what-doth-it-profit-a-man-if-a-gift-is-bestowed-upon-him-and-he-receive-not-the-gift/comment-page-1/#comment-892</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 05:16:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/?p=248#comment-892</guid>
		<description>Hi Tim,

As always your comments are enlightening and create understanding.

You asked:Is being baptized of fire the same as receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost? 

I&#039;ll offer my opinion on this subject. I have come to believe that most members of the church have not been baptized by &quot;fire and the Holy Ghost&quot;. I think that any active, sincere Latter-Day-Saint, has promptings from the Holy Ghost, even sanctifying experiences. Here are a few reason why I feel this way:

1. Joseph Fielding Smith said:

However, it is my judgment that there are many members of this Church who have been baptized for the remission of their sins, who have had hands laid upon their heads for the gift of the Holy Ghost, who have never received that gift, that is, the manifestations of it. Why?  Because they have never put themselves in order to receive these manifestations.  Conference Report, October 1958, p.21 - p.22

2. The prophet Joseph Smith was reported to have taught that having the Holy Ghost was different from having fire and the Holy Ghost. In other words, they can be separate events, though related:

The Prophet Joseph Smith was a great reconciler of discrepancies in passages of scripture which were or seemed to be in conflict with each other. Until I heard the great expounder of Bible doctrines explain the following passages I concluded there must be a wrong translation in one verse or the other. One verse read: &quot;I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.&quot;—Matthew iii, 11.
Here we have baptism with water, baptism with the Holy Ghost, and baptism with fire, three in number. The question naturally arises, how can this passage be reconciled with the following: &quot;There is one . . . Lord, one faith, one baptism.&quot;—Ephesians iv., 4-6.
Joseph Smith reconciled these two scriptural passages. He said: &quot;There is but one baptism; it takes the baptism of water, of the Holy Ghost, and of fire to constitute one full baptism.&quot;  Daniel Tyler, They Knew the Prophet, 51. Helen Mae Andrus, Hyrum L. Andrus

3. King Benjamin&#039;s people were described as being a &quot;diligent people in keeping the commandments of the Lord and a &quot;highly favored people of the Lord&quot; (Mosiah 1:11 &amp; 13). Certainly they had many experiences with the Holy Ghost, but hadn&#039;t received fire and the Holy Ghost. 

Enos is another example, he was the son of a prophet, and I assume active in his faith and experienced the Holy Ghost. He didn&#039;t receive fire and the Holy Ghost until he wrestled with the Lord in might prayer (Enos 1:2).  

I want to write more but I need to go.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Tim,</p>
<p>As always your comments are enlightening and create understanding.</p>
<p>You asked:Is being baptized of fire the same as receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost? </p>
<p>I&#8217;ll offer my opinion on this subject. I have come to believe that most members of the church have not been baptized by &#8220;fire and the Holy Ghost&#8221;. I think that any active, sincere Latter-Day-Saint, has promptings from the Holy Ghost, even sanctifying experiences. Here are a few reason why I feel this way:</p>
<p>1. Joseph Fielding Smith said:</p>
<p>However, it is my judgment that there are many members of this Church who have been baptized for the remission of their sins, who have had hands laid upon their heads for the gift of the Holy Ghost, who have never received that gift, that is, the manifestations of it. Why?  Because they have never put themselves in order to receive these manifestations.  Conference Report, October 1958, p.21 &#8211; p.22</p>
<p>2. The prophet Joseph Smith was reported to have taught that having the Holy Ghost was different from having fire and the Holy Ghost. In other words, they can be separate events, though related:</p>
<p>The Prophet Joseph Smith was a great reconciler of discrepancies in passages of scripture which were or seemed to be in conflict with each other. Until I heard the great expounder of Bible doctrines explain the following passages I concluded there must be a wrong translation in one verse or the other. One verse read: &#8220;I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.&#8221;—Matthew iii, 11.<br />
Here we have baptism with water, baptism with the Holy Ghost, and baptism with fire, three in number. The question naturally arises, how can this passage be reconciled with the following: &#8220;There is one . . . Lord, one faith, one baptism.&#8221;—Ephesians iv., 4-6.<br />
Joseph Smith reconciled these two scriptural passages. He said: &#8220;There is but one baptism; it takes the baptism of water, of the Holy Ghost, and of fire to constitute one full baptism.&#8221;  Daniel Tyler, They Knew the Prophet, 51. Helen Mae Andrus, Hyrum L. Andrus</p>
<p>3. King Benjamin&#8217;s people were described as being a &#8220;diligent people in keeping the commandments of the Lord and a &#8220;highly favored people of the Lord&#8221; (Mosiah 1:11 &amp; 13). Certainly they had many experiences with the Holy Ghost, but hadn&#8217;t received fire and the Holy Ghost. </p>
<p>Enos is another example, he was the son of a prophet, and I assume active in his faith and experienced the Holy Ghost. He didn&#8217;t receive fire and the Holy Ghost until he wrestled with the Lord in might prayer (Enos 1:2).  </p>
<p>I want to write more but I need to go.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Malone</title>
		<link>http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/11/for-what-doth-it-profit-a-man-if-a-gift-is-bestowed-upon-him-and-he-receive-not-the-gift/comment-page-1/#comment-891</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Malone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 03:12:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/?p=248#comment-891</guid>
		<description>Hi Jared,

Excellent, thoughtful, essay.  Thank you.  I&#039;d like to comment on two points you raised.  1. &quot;I’ve never heard anyone bear testimony that they received the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost.&quot;  Like you, I don&#039;t think I have ever heard anyone bear testimony of this in a contemporary fast and testimony meeting.

But Lorenzo Snow&#039;s experience comes to mind.  He bore witness of an answer to prayer in which he was enveloped in the spirit from the crown of his head to the soles of his feet.  He said that it was a literal baptism, preceded by a rustling sound, as if a silken robe was descending upon him.  Here&#039;s the quote:

&quot;I had no sooner opened my lips in an effort to pray, than I heard a sound, just above my head, like the rustling of silken robes, and immediately the Spirit of God descended upon me, completely enveloping my whole person, filling me, from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet, and O, the joy and happiness I felt! No language can describe the almost instantaneous transition from a dense cloud of mental and spiritual darkness into a refulgence of light and knowledge, as it was at that time imparted to my understanding.&quot;

Online source: &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&amp;locale=0&amp;sourceId=1988fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&amp;hideNav=1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Liahona, April 1980&lt;/A&gt;

A few additional questions to ponder: Is being baptized of fire the same as receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost?  Is it the same as being born again?  Joseph Smith taught that we might as well baptize a bag of sand as baptize a man without the baptism of fire an the Holy Ghost.  Of course, there have been many who have taught that the baptism of fire can be both a process as well as an event.  What do you think?

2. &quot;I have come to believe that many members are on the verge of receiving important manifestations of the Spirit if they would only diligently seek for them.&quot;  This was a favorite lament of our previous Stake President, and was perhaps the theme of his tenure.  He was constantly quoting that we live far below our privileges in receiving revelation.

From a recent BYU-Idaho devotional: &quot;More than once prophets have said that ‘we live far below our privileges.&#039; If I understand this statement correctly, it means that we are not receiving revelation as we might otherwise because we are not doing or becoming what the Lord expects of us. A major reason we live far below our privileges in receiving revelation is due to our lack of reverence. There must be no doubt that to receive the delicate and quiet whisperings of the still, small voice one must be reverent.&quot;

Boyd K. Packer also agrees with you. Quoting from his recently published book, Mine Errand from the Lord, &quot;We live below our privileges concerning inspiration. One thing I have said more times than a few is that we live far below our privileges. Members of the Church live far below their privileges as far as inspiration is concerned.&quot; (98–02)

But you&#039;ve got to ask, &quot;What is the purpose of receiving a manifestation of the spirit?&quot;  Is it to confirm faith or to receive direction, or to encourage further faithfulness?  I know that such manifestations are not limited to prophets and apostles.  Are such manifestations simply further evidence of the baptism of the spirit, being immersed in the Heavenly element?  Or are they to seal us to the Lord and prevent us from getting lost in the trials of the last days?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Jared,</p>
<p>Excellent, thoughtful, essay.  Thank you.  I&#8217;d like to comment on two points you raised.  1. &#8220;I’ve never heard anyone bear testimony that they received the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost.&#8221;  Like you, I don&#8217;t think I have ever heard anyone bear testimony of this in a contemporary fast and testimony meeting.</p>
<p>But Lorenzo Snow&#8217;s experience comes to mind.  He bore witness of an answer to prayer in which he was enveloped in the spirit from the crown of his head to the soles of his feet.  He said that it was a literal baptism, preceded by a rustling sound, as if a silken robe was descending upon him.  Here&#8217;s the quote:</p>
<p>&#8220;I had no sooner opened my lips in an effort to pray, than I heard a sound, just above my head, like the rustling of silken robes, and immediately the Spirit of God descended upon me, completely enveloping my whole person, filling me, from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet, and O, the joy and happiness I felt! No language can describe the almost instantaneous transition from a dense cloud of mental and spiritual darkness into a refulgence of light and knowledge, as it was at that time imparted to my understanding.&#8221;</p>
<p>Online source: <a HREF="http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&amp;locale=0&amp;sourceId=1988fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&amp;hideNav=1" rel="nofollow">Liahona, April 1980</a></p>
<p>A few additional questions to ponder: Is being baptized of fire the same as receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost?  Is it the same as being born again?  Joseph Smith taught that we might as well baptize a bag of sand as baptize a man without the baptism of fire an the Holy Ghost.  Of course, there have been many who have taught that the baptism of fire can be both a process as well as an event.  What do you think?</p>
<p>2. &#8220;I have come to believe that many members are on the verge of receiving important manifestations of the Spirit if they would only diligently seek for them.&#8221;  This was a favorite lament of our previous Stake President, and was perhaps the theme of his tenure.  He was constantly quoting that we live far below our privileges in receiving revelation.</p>
<p>From a recent BYU-Idaho devotional: &#8220;More than once prophets have said that ‘we live far below our privileges.&#8217; If I understand this statement correctly, it means that we are not receiving revelation as we might otherwise because we are not doing or becoming what the Lord expects of us. A major reason we live far below our privileges in receiving revelation is due to our lack of reverence. There must be no doubt that to receive the delicate and quiet whisperings of the still, small voice one must be reverent.&#8221;</p>
<p>Boyd K. Packer also agrees with you. Quoting from his recently published book, Mine Errand from the Lord, &#8220;We live below our privileges concerning inspiration. One thing I have said more times than a few is that we live far below our privileges. Members of the Church live far below their privileges as far as inspiration is concerned.&#8221; (98–02)</p>
<p>But you&#8217;ve got to ask, &#8220;What is the purpose of receiving a manifestation of the spirit?&#8221;  Is it to confirm faith or to receive direction, or to encourage further faithfulness?  I know that such manifestations are not limited to prophets and apostles.  Are such manifestations simply further evidence of the baptism of the spirit, being immersed in the Heavenly element?  Or are they to seal us to the Lord and prevent us from getting lost in the trials of the last days?</p>
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