While surfing the Bloggernacle I came across a blog with a post that I would like to review. The author of the post shared his “testimony”. He started out by stating that he was born and raised in the church, served on a mission, and cherishes the church, and then added that he did not believe in the spiritual claims of the church and never really had. This includes foundational things like the first vision, coming forth of the Book of Mormon, and the restoration of the priesthood by angelic messengers. In other words, all claim of the “supernatural” (his choice of words) never happened.
To him, the church is just an organization of men doing good things based on a whopper of a story. But, that is all right with him because there are many practical aspects of the church that are good, he writes.
Following is a list of a few of the practical aspects of the church that keep him coming back:
It’s good to grow up giving prayers, memorizing talks, and learning songs in Primary.
It’s good to have to sit still in Sacrament Meeting for an hour every week as a kid.
It’s good to have the self-esteem and motivation that comes with considering yourself a Child of God.
It’s good to be reminded on a weekly (if not daily) basis to cultivate Christ like attitudes and behaviors toward others.
It’s good to be taught to be self-reliant, prepared for emergencies, and to live within your means.
It’s good to learn to part with a double-digit percentage of your income and a significant portion of your free time -it makes you a more generous person.
It’s good to not use tobacco or to abuse alcohol or other potentially addictive substances.
New Order Mormons Choose the Third Leg of Three Options
New Order Mormons are those who no longer believe some (or much) of the dogma or doctrines of the church. Instead of leaving the church they choose to stay, choosing, what they call-the third option. The third option is to stay associated with the church but learn to cope with “believers”, and then embrace the practical things the church offers and utilize these things for their own gain. The list above is an example. The first option is to believe and conform, the second option is to disbelieve and leave.
A Little Mind Boggling
I have to admit this is a little mind boggling. It reminds me of an account in the Book of Mormon. Alma and his brethren were “astonished beyond all measure” by a group of Nephites who started what amounted to a new religious movement, a splinter Nephite group known as the Zoramites. At this point in time, The New Order Mormons don’t appear to be starting a new religious movement, but they do appear to be forming a secretive shadow church, within the LDS church.
Deception and Love
New Order Mormons (NOM) are beginning to gather together via the internet, forming support groups to help one another with the goal of staying in a church whose claims they no longer accept. Remember, the three options NOM are discussing among themselves:
1. Stay in the church and “believe”.
2. Leave the church.
3. Stay in the church as a non-believer and learn “coping” skills.
The underlying premise of Option Three is to preserve the family by staying in the church. “Family and other loved ones are more important than most other considerations,” says one NOM writer.
But I ask, can deception and love be lasting companions? Is deceiving your loved ones and friends the best solution? Are you really comfortable attending your son or daughter’s temple marriage by deceiving a Bishop and Stake President to obtain a temple recommend? I think most NOM want to be honest with those they love, but some are buying into the idea of deception and secrecy because of the NOM philosophy.
I believe there is another option. It is a better option because it doesn’t require any form of deception. It’s a fourth option.
The Fourth Option
The underlying premise of the Fourth Option is honesty. There are many ways to be honest and at the same time preserve your relationship with your family and friends. Here is a straight forward, honest approach; the Fourth Option:
1. Tell someone you respect about your NOM leanings. This could be a church leader, family member, or even someone you don’t know personally. You could even remain anonymous, if you want. It may require talking with more than one individual before you find the right person. When you do, you will know because ideas will come forth that you’ll be comfortable with.
2. Are you willing to discuss your reasons for doubting or not believing? If yes, begin there. Many members find if they will discuss their concerns they can find answers to the most perplexing questions, and in the process reacquire faith. Go here and here for more information.
If you’re not willing to discuss your concerns then make that clear from the start.
3. A key question that needs to be settled is: how can I attend church with integrity? There are many members of the church who struggle with faith, but have found church activity rewarding so they continue going, and do so honestly by accepting their feelings and honestly dealing with them by working with the Fourth Option.
Concluding Thoughts
I think the bottom line issue for anyone entertaining the idea of adopting the NOM philosophy is honesty. Can you truly say that you’re not troubled by using deception as a tool to manipulate your loved ones? If you’re troubled, I hope you will immediately find a better way. Deception and love don’t make good companions. You can do better!
Hi Jared,
I understand and once shared your astonishment. A few years ago I discovered that a good friend remains a member mostly because he finds practical value in the church, and not because he has what we would recognize as a testimony. (This was especially surprising because his wife and children are all fervent believers and he fully supports them in their activity and belief.) He privately believes the church is useful, not necessarily that it’s true.
I was quite taken aback, and part of me felt he hadn’t the right to carry on as he did: that he was being deceitful and dishonest. It has taken me about three years to come around to the idea that we as Church members bear some responsibility for NOMs hiding their “true colors.”
The problem with your Fourth Option is that it risks tremendous, negative, life-altering consequences in exchange for that honesty. If my friend confesses his lukewarm belief to an intransigent bishop, he may find himself in a losing battle with the church over his place in his own family.
Let’s consider the potential consequences:
Cannot watch one’s own son or daughter get married (no temple recommend).
A growing rift with one’s believing wife, who has been taught her whole life to marry someone who can take her to the Celestial Kingdom. There are so many stories of divorce following the disbelief of one spouse that this has to be top of mind for many NOMs. Despite the Church’s official teachings, these divorces are sometimes aided and abetted by local leaders who believe that, having turned his back on the church, the father is no longer worthy of a believing spouse and children.
One becomes an object of pity. One’s children may have well-meaning leaders who express sympathy for their having an apostate father; in any case children will unavoidably recognize that, per the Church’s doctrine, their family is at risk of not being together in the eternities because their father is not keeping his temple covenants. This creates anxiety in the children, and a concommitant pressure on the father to conform.
An attempt on the part of believing extended family (or ward) members to innoculate the children from the influence/thinking of their apostate father.
Loss of respect and social standing in the community, sometimes extending to loss of employment or business opportunities.
Viewed in this light, is it any wonder that most NOMs keep quiet? And remember, the example you gave is of someone who fundamentally agrees with the Church in practical matters; it is only in “supernatural” matters that we disagree. This is someone who’s willing to pay tithing, serve in callings, and raise his children in the faith. Do we really want to chase such people out of the Church? Because I think that the insistence they choose, right now, which side of the line they’re on risks doing exactly that.
I believe we have fallen short of our Christian duty by our failure to have made Church a safe place to express questioning or doubt. We expect people to say “I know” rather than “I believe” or “I hope” or “I have faith in,” despite the scriptures being pretty clear that such hope can be rewarded with eternal life. The result is that our brothers and sisters in Christ have turned to anonymous message boards, where they can express what is truly in their hearts without fear of recrimination.
I respect your concerns, Jared, about honesty and integrity; about the conflict between “deception and love,” as you put it. But I think once someone has reached the point where they believe the Church is just another human institution, albeit a very good and beneficial one, they no longer feel guilty about just going along to get along, especially when they know the odds are against them getting a sympathetic hearing for their real concerns.
Alex–excellent, thoughtful comment. Thanks for taking the time to add it to this blog.
The idea of NOM is so new to me I am still taking it in. At this point in my thinking I believe they certainly should remain active in the church. That isn’t an issue in my mind. I see members in my current ward (and in every ward I have been in) who are active in the church but stay in the background. No one really knows much about the depth of their testimony.
Now that I have learned about NOM’s it may be that this is a motivation for being active, but aloof for some. The only problem I have with the NOM agenda is deception. I don’t think less of a person who chooses to be active and stay in the background. But when someone is deceptive in a temple recommend interview so they can go to the temple to perpetuate a deception on their family, I am deeply troubled.
I don’t think anyone is going to be driven from the church because of a weak or none existent testimony.
In my circle of friends I count a few who are inactive for their own reasons, their families accept them, as does they employer. At this point, I don’t buy into the idea that a NOM is going to lose their family, job, and status if they are open with their feelings.
I’m confused by Jared’s post.
How would a person’s employer know what their religious affiliation, or their commitment to it, be?
“..I don’t into buy into the idea that a NOM is going to lose their family, job, and status if they are open with their feelings.”
I would hope not. Any employer would be sued on the spot for discriminating due to religion.
I don’t understand. Maybe I’m naive due to never living in a Mormon area but something is wrong here.
…just sayin
I seriously doubt that many NOMs hold temple recommends. Most, much more likely are simply marginally active. If you don’t believe in something, you probably just want to slide by and do the bare minimum to maintain some sort of respectability.
I think the Church does effectively push the marginally active into inactivity if there aren’t strong reasons for them to otherwise remain. A non-temple recommend holding member that cannot or does not aspire to be a recommend holding one is resigned to quasi-outsider status indefinitely. He or she cannot get married in a manner that the Church gives more than the most grudging respect to, for example.
Some say the Apostasy was due to the early Church becoming too easy and too popular. The modern LDS Church is certainly following the opposite strategy. Perhaps it is healthy to alienate the half-believers, but I am not so sure.
With all due respect, Jared, I’m not sure you really grasp the idea of New Order Mormonism (NOM).
A bit about myself. I am an active member of the Church. I attend weekly, pay my tithing, and serve in a calling. I pray everyday with my wife. But my personal beliefs have been such that I’ve probably fallen within the NOM camp for a few years now. I wouldn’t say I’m a non-believer, but I would certainly consider myself an unorthodox Mormon. I don’t exactly advertise this to strangers, but I also don’t try to hide it. I’m fairly willing to discuss my beliefs with anyone who’s willing to listen.
I think one thing that should be emphasized is that “NOM” is not a strictly defined term; the NOM tent is pretty broad. On one end, you may have NOMs who are total unbelievers and are on their way out of the Church. On the other end, you may have NOMs who are merely less orthodox believers but who still identify as Mormons and wish to remain active in the Church. So it’s a pretty imprecise, and therefore inclusive, term.
I don’t know why you believe that NOMs are necessarily deceptive. I’ll have to chalk that up to misunderstanding. Most NOMs are willing to and do discuss their beliefs with family, friends, and even priesthood leaders (although some are more discreet than others, depending on the circumstances). Some NOMs’ beliefs are such that they feel comfortable giving the “correct” answers to the temple recommend questions, while other NOMs decline to renew their recommends. It’s a personal choice. Personally, I feel that the temple recommend questions are phrased broadly enough that it is by no means inconceivable that less orthodox Mormons could qualify for a recommend. And temple worship aside, I like to think (or at least hope) that the Church is diverse enough to tolerate people who desire to participate, even if their worldview differs somewhat from the mainstream.
One thing that those under the NOM tent tend to have in common is a strong desire to live authentically. Most of us are just trying to be ourselves, and our hope is that the Church is tolerant enough to permit non-hostile people with varying degrees of belief to continue to congregate and worship with the Saints, without feeling any compulsion to lie or cover up their doubts. So in this sense, deception strikes me as antithetical to what “NOMism” is about.
I’m been a NOM for five years, but have known for decades the church had problems with its
theology and history. Still I remain because of five believing children & fifteen grandchildren.
I love sitting with them, singing the songs, listening to speakers (should I agree with them) and enjoying the fellowship of old friends.
I know a dozen different families in my own ward who are NOMs. You can recognized them in
class with comments like “The handbook teaches us” or “Another theory is human evolution…”
My personal feeling is that the church will change greatly over the next couple of decades. It
has already changed. I am well received in my ward. I establish my own level of involvement.
I have not renewed my temple recommend. No one has asked why. I think my ‘NO on prop 8′
bumper stickers identified me as a unorthodox member. I hold a calling, I attend 2 out of the
3 hour blocks. I pay fast offering and make humanitarian contributions. It is enough.
Howdy Jared.
Most NoM’s in my opinion, exercise this “particle of faith” shown in ALMA 32:27. They keep coming because they see some good in it. So what is wrong with that? They also keep asking questions and talking about it on NoM. They want answers. I am sure that most of them take it up with God and since he gives those who ask wisdom liberally (D&C 42:68). Why not at NoM? You wont find the cookie-cutter answers there. You’ll find people that have had the same questions you may have.
If anything, the idea that Nom even HAS to exist does worry me somewhat. I don’t like the idea that people are afraid to express themselves and their doubts. We are all supposed to be allowed to have doubts, otherwise there would be no veil and we wouldn’t have faith at all. (Ether 3:19)
Bruce in Montana
Thanks for your comment. I think most of your question will be answered by the comments following yours.
If I ever decide to follow my dreams I will contact you about learning to fly fish and buying your flies.
I got hooked into this desire by the movie, “A River Runs Through It”.
Mark D., Steve M., George W., James
I admit I have much to learn about NOM.
I feel the church should, and does welcome all levels of faith, from those who possess a particle of faith, to those who have realized the promise of the Second Comforter. If this approach isn’t being practiced in the wards you attend, then they are out of harmony with the general church leadership.
I can see that the NOM tent is broad. My post was directed to those who are using deception for personal gain, not those who are keeping doubt and unbelief to themselves. I don’t consider that deception, that is more a matter of privacy, in my opinion. However, those who are willing to lie to obtain callings, temple recommends, or further their business interest are deceptive. I think the reason to obtain a temple recommend should be to make and keep sacred covenants. If other consideration trump that purpose then the line has been crossed and they are not being authentic.
I think it is important to ask questions and explore our doubts. I don’t think the wards I have attended do a very good job with that. There is room for improvement.
The main reason I attend church is to take the sacrament and deal with the Lord’s work as it pertains to His church. This includes fulfilling financial and service responsibilities. But for me personally, I have found that the real work of spirituality is accomplished in prayer, scripture study, and in family gatherings and interaction.
Hi Jared.
I have been a member for four years. I have recently been questioning many aspects of the Church and I find I can not agree with everything I hear as being the truth. I turned to the Web b/c my husband got very confused to the point of saying “Look if you do not believe-There is no reason to be together” .. IOW Divorce. He accused me of my doubt-As being from the fault of “Anti-Sites”. I have never posted or read posts on the ex-mormon(?) site or other sites that seem to have negitive feelings all the way around. I enjoy Fair-But I find posters have already labeled me as “Anti” although I have stated my belief in JS as a true prophet, The BOM being the word of God and Jesus Christ being my Savior. It is b/c I do not agree with a list of many other things. I found NOM and it was such a relief. People that respect the church, try to find good in the church. People like me. B/C of some of the advice I have gotten there I have learned to talk with my Husband in a more positive light. He knows now that I have many problems with the church-And is slowly becoming more understanding. I do hold a TR, I go to church every Sunday. NOM has helped me tremendously. I do find it sad that I am scared to death to ever bring up issues with anyone in my ward or my bishop. I wish people didn’t have to feel that way BUT the truth is many obviously do. Hence – The NOM site and all of the wonderful posters that participate.
Jared,
I wanted to comment on one thing in your last post. You stated,
“I think the reason to obtain a temple recommend should be to make and keep sacred covenants. If other consideration trump that purpose then the line has been crossed and they are not being authentic.”
I suggest another consideration that trumps your stated ‘should’ purpose, attending your child’s wedding. When one is denied a recommend because of the belief questions, not the doing questions, then I am of the opinion that one may do as he needs to to acquire that ticket to attend their own child’s wedding. If that means saying yes when one actually has grand doubts then so be it. I am in the position right now of NOT having a recommend as the result of telling the truth of my personal beliefs to the Bishop on the first question at the interview.
I am not sure I will ever do that again. AND I am not sure that I won’t at this point. I have 3 years more to live with this particular Bishop in his position, with him knowing what he knows about my beliefs. I will continue pondering the consideration between honesty with regards to my personal beliefs and the relationship and memories and experience of the marriage of any one of my remaining 9 children who are not yet married. Thank you for listening and hearing my plight and perhaps seeing something you may not have seen before.
I’m a temple recommend holding, temple attending NOM. I generally don’t believe anything that the church teaches. I have no belief in God, no belief in the scriptures or any need for a savior or atonement. I probably don’t have anything that even remotely resembles ‘a particle of faith.’
I’m active because I love my wife and want to support her in her faith. There is no deception or manipulation of loved ones.
Jared,
I appreciate your acknowledgement of a less than full understanding of this most un-monolithic notion. Your discovery of NOMs has obviously rattled you. My discovery of people who actually believe that the Book of Mormon is historical fact and that 15 men in Utah are God’s one and only mouthpiece rattled me. Let me provide you with a dichotomy: We’re two opposite sides of the same Mormon coin. I go to church. I hold two callings. I am at every service project I can possibly be at. I do my home teaching. I read my scriptures and pray with my family. So on and so on. These things probably sound familiar as they are likely all the same things you do. We both believe something about the church is worth doing this for. Are you somehow better than me because you believe everything literally while I don’t? I cannot imagine you truly feel that way. I promise you I do not think I am better than you. We all have different gifts of the spirit and different testimonies. Who is to say that one set is better than any others? Certainly not us. Judge not lest we be judged ourselves.
Until President Monson decides that all non-literalists, doubters, and imperfect people should be excommunicated, these NOMs you criticize are just as much members of this church as you are.
Lastly, if what you perceive as dishonesty in their lifestyle bothers you, I assume you are 100% honest in every dealing of your own life, every minute, every day. No fudging at work? No exceeding your family budget? No litle white lies to make someone feel better about themselves? No caffeine? No skipping occasional sessions of General Conference? No finding Sister Catsmeow attractive in that wrap dress? Come on, not one itty bitty teensie weensie sin? Obviously you would reply that you do your best with the counsel and abilities you’ve been given and seek the Lord’s forgiveness for your imperfections. Funny, us NOMs do too.
Take Care, Jared. I wish you the best.
Monkey and NOM,
Thanks for taking the time to comment.
I hope that those you love–Monkey’s children, and NOM’s wife, are not somehow alienated from you by the decisions you’re making to protect them from your true feelings. I imagine that this can be a burden on you at times.
I only hope the best for you.
Jared,
Even though most NOMs are quiet about their beliefs, it is fairly common for some family/friends to be aware of their situation. Its not about deception.
NOMs have the choice of going up in testimony meeting and expressing their sincere disbelief of various aspects of the church or just sitting and remaining silent. Given that choice, NOMs often feel that it is more respectful to remain silent. In a private, non-threatening environment NOMs are usually quite happy to express their true beliefs.
Interesting twist, using the word feelings in place of beliefs.
Jared stated, “I hope that those you love–Monkey’s children, and NOM’s wife, are not somehow alienated from you by the decisions you’re making to protect them from your true feelings. I imagine that this can be a burden on you at times.”
I hear your concern for my children and for me in this statement, thank you.
I also notice that you equate belief with feelings. My feelings are not being decided upon. Only the sharing of my beliefs or lack of them in some areas. My feelings are that I love all people and things as if they are myself, they are myself in my view. There is NO alienation when Love is chosen above all. Silence is a form of love many many times.
Thank you for caring about those of us who you do not even know. For me this shows how much you are in tune with the human family and their needs and wants. Very loving on your part. Have a great Sabbath!
I appreciate you trying to understand NOMs, but most of us in that category are in the process of redefining what the church is to us. I don’t see as deception, but redefining. I am one is who upfront with most everyone I talk to as I feel like there is no other way in my mind. I want actions to be congruent with my thoughts, too. Integrity in a sense demands honesty, but in the church we do have to be cautious as the church expects loyalty over everything else as presumes anyone who doesn’t fit the mold as apostates. I told my bishop upfront when answering TR questions recently, that in order to still have one, I had to redefine in my mind what they meant and not take them so literally. He seemed to be OK with it as he still gave it to me.
I do like to do some work in the temple, I just don’t do any endowments as they go against my personal beliefs. I also want the chance to see my son married if he chooses to marry that, I do not want the church denying me that.
Jared, you said: “In my circle of friends I count a few who are inactive for their own reasons, their families accept them, as does they employer. At this point, I don’t buy into the idea that a NOM is going to lose their family, job, and status if they are open with their feelings.”
When I first told my wife, very gently, that I had doubts about the LDS church being “true”, in any meaningful sense of the word, the first thing she said was: “I don’t know if I can stay married to you if you don’t stay a member of the church.”
We have had several mutually-respectful discussions about church ‘issues’ since then, and she accepts now that, for me but not for her, there is reason to believe as I do. But I have had to agree not to discuss these beliefs with our children and with her faithful brother’s family, because she knows (as I do) that it would cause a breakdown in relationships.
My brother-in-law, especially, would be unlikely to allow his children to associate with me if there was any chance at all that I might say anything negative about the church.
As long as I am simply inactive, but not making waves, I am accepted, but I know what awaits the moment I talk about my true beliefs.
Jared,
I am worried about NOM’s because of the message they appear to send. That message is: accept what you know is wrong as OK. Mormonism is all about the belief that men can receive knowledge from God. NOM’s are full of people who either deny that, or say they’ve received an answer contrary to the church, yet they still stick around. NOM is simply a less negative sounding term for wolves in sheep’s clothing, those who would tear down the church from the inside. It reminds me of a story Stephen Robinson told about a girl who asked him if he was serious about the gospel. Apperently, in the girl’s family, her parents didn’t believe, but they “did all the right things.” They “played church, and churchy” but didn’t believe. Could anything be closer to the hypocrisy that Jesus’ decried than those who go through the motions without any feeling? Those also didn’t care, they refused to try and improve.
I’m not put-off by people who come to church who don’t believe. I would be put-off by people who think that it needs to be that way.
I’m not put-off by people expressing their doubts in testimony meeting and asking for help, love and understanding. I would be put-off by people providing a veneer of OK (hypocrisy or pretending anyone).
I’ve been very interested in all of the comments. It’s getting late in the day and I wanted to respond to those who have posted. This will be a general response. I read each comment and tried to put myself in the situation each of the NOM have described. I can understand, to a certain degree, why NOM feel the way they do.
However, my experience with the church and things of the Spirit gives me a prospective very different from NOM. I know by sacred experience that the claims made by our missionaries are fact, nothing doubting. I came to the Bloggernacle to testify that each of us should diligently seek to fulfill our baptism covenants and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. The Lord in his mercy has granted me significant experiences with this gift. I’m not entirely sure why, because in my youth I lived the ways of the world. One day I offered a simple prayer and suddenly my life was changed by the answer I received.
It seems, that for reasons known to the Lord, He will at times leave the 99 and bring back the one who has strayed. I am one of those. As a result, I have a responsibility to testify that the Lord will bless each and every person with a testimony who sincerely seek Him, but He will do it in His own way, and in His own time.
I am certainly not one to judge NOM, as one commenter suggested. Having come from a background of worldliness I certainly don’t think myself better than anyone else.
I worry about the fact that NOM are organizing and providing support for one another. The reason I worry is that this may reduce the motivation needed in order for them to progress in things of the Spirit. When one is motivated, by compelling need, they are able to pray with energy of soul and obtain answers to their prayers. When this occurs then faith is increased. The hungry or pain that can bring a NOM to a state of mind where they pray with energy of soul might be quenched by a support group.
I hope that all church members will strive to be near the Lord, not just active in His church. When one lives near to the Lord they will find the Lord leading them and they will have frequent answers to their prayers.
For those interested, I suggest going to the link below for examples of individuals who were compelled because of their circumstances, and how each found the Lord.
Thanks to everyone who commented or will comment.
http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/category/example-of-faith/
Jared,
“I know by sacred experience that the claims made by our missionaries are fact, nothing doubting.”
Many NOMs know by experience that the claims made by the missionaries are NOT factual. I was a missionary and I know that the stuff I taught wasn’t factual. So we are at an impasse.
“I worry about the fact that NOMs are organizing and providing support for one another.”
Wow–you are concerned that people gather together and mourn with those that mourn and comfort those that stand in need of comfort?
NOM said:Many NOMs know by experience that the claims made by the missionaries are NOT factual. I was a missionary and I know that the stuff I taught wasn’t factual. So we are at an impasse.
I think I’ve heard all the arguments about church history that you may be referring to in this statement. The bottom line is that the missionaries teach that Joseph Smith is a modern day prophet called of God to restore His church. I know this is true by sacred experience (the irrefutable kind).
NOM said; Wow–you are concerned that people gather together and mourn with those that mourn and comfort those that stand in need of comfort?
In my opinion, the bottom line issue here is whether or not faith is increased in the process of gathering together. If it is, then it is of eternal value, if not, then I believe it is something to be concerned about.
NOM-I respect your right to believe what you will. I agree with you that there are many issues in church history that are troubling. The Lord told us there is opposition in all things. In my experience, the way this opposition should be dealt with is by going to the Lord in prayer and obtain answers.
Following is a link where a Rhodes Scholar was in a situation where he put everything on the line to gain a testimony of the Book of Mormon. You may find this interesting.
http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2008/05/rhodes-scholar-boldly-seeks-for-testimony-of-the-book-of-mormon/
Jared, I understand that you think that you have irrefutable experience that the church is true. People in almost every religion have irrefutable evidence that their religion is true. Many NOMs think that they have irrefutable evidence that the church is not true. Unless all roads lead to Rome, there are a lot of people in the world with faulty ‘irrefutable’ evidence.
Faith in the mormon church is generally not advanced by NOM activities. You should probably be concerned about NOMs just like you would be concerned about the Catholics, Jews, Protestants, and every other group that gets together to support each other but doesn’t advance faith in the mormon church.
NOM,
Regarding other churches. It would be interesting to see how many really have claims like the Mormon church’s claims about Joseph Smith, and how many of them proclaim a doctrine like the 1st and 2nd Comforter doctrines.
As far as my irrefutable experiences, they are sacred to me. I am willing to testify of these things with the hope that it will create faith in those who are struggling and help them to be motivated to set aside whatever is standing between them and obtaining their own testimony.
I would guess, and I will repeat, I would guess, that the vast majority of NOM haven’t been willing to really put everything on the line like the Rhodes Scholar did in the above link. I think many of them are more academic than faith seeking, so whatever they experience by study is the bottom line. Once again, this is my hunch, and opinion.
The scripture below is powerful in its expression and gives us a glimpse into the Lord’s plan for us.
I know that he granteth unto men according to their desire, whether it be unto death or unto life; yea, I know that he allotteth unto men, yea, decreeth unto them decrees which are unalterable, according to their wills, whether they be unto salvation or unto destruction.
Yea, and I know that good and evil have come before all men; he that knoweth not good from evil is blameless; but he that knoweth good and evil, to him it is given according to his desires, whether he desireth good or evil, life or death, joy or remorse of conscience. Alma 29:4-5
Jared,
Almost every evangelical Christian would claim an irrefutable knowledge that their version of Christianity is sanctioned by God. They have all had witnesses of the spirit. I gave people the book of mormon on my mission and they prayed about it and received a witness of the spirit that it was not true. I was a believer at the time and could only respond that they needed to pray more or that they must have done something wrong. They sure seemed sincere.
I’d guess that you are wrong about NOMs not being willing to put evereything on the line.
Regarding the scripture, NOMs generally find good in the church, but are willing to admit that there are some bad (or even evil) parts of the church such as past racism, an obedience to authority culture that produced the Mountain Meadows Massacre, Joseph’s practice of marrying women that were already married, Joseph’s clearly incorrect characterization and translation of the Book of Abraham, etc.
Fascinating thread. I agree with Jared that there is something uncomfortable with putting a trendy name to such a group. If it’s just a matter of facilitating discussion on the web, then that’s fine and healthy. If it represents an attempt to organize a “church within the church” then it would be decidedly unhealthy.
The really interesting question here is how we approach doubt as church members. Some members are threatened by the idea of doubt. Some feel guilty. I taught an evening course on church history once and a sister came up to me privately and said she loved the church but had never felt totally comfortable with Joseph Smith. I reassured her and later spent some time pondering. It came to me that 2 Ne. 2 applies here. If it is impossible to be good without the temptation to do evil, it stands to reason that it is impossible to excersize faith without the challenges of doubt. If there is no doubt then it’s not faith, but knowledge (as Alma says in Alma 32). So in one sense, we exhibit faith when we have doubts but act anyway.
When you get really philisophical, it’s hard to ‘know’ anything anyway, so why not go with what seems to resonate with your deepest sense of what’s meaningful and true. Some people have the gift to be satisfied and fulfilled with a simple unquestioning faith. I think there’s a special place in heaven for those who struggle with doubt but continue faithful in the church anyway. There’s a humility there that is noble and praiseworthy.
Everyone has unanswered questions at some level, or harbours private opinions that would not likely make it into any official manual. Does that mean it’s appropriate to bring your issues up in Sunday School? Maybe for you it’s just a question but for someone else a stumbling block. There’s a time and place for everything, and Sunday School (for example) is a place to teach standard doctrine simply and encourage faith and study. Just last Sunday I hung back after Gospel Doctrine class to chat with the teacher. He was a member of the Stake Presidency before they reorganized 6 months ago. He was musing whether to discuss alternate theories of how and when the Melchizedek Priesthood was introduced into the church in our class next week. I advised him not to – in a class that size you don’t know who’s faith may be weakened by such a discussion. The class is too big and too diverse and the time too short. In a church class you want to keep it simple, stay close to the scriptures and try to have people be touched by the Spirit and thus strenghened and uplifted in their determination to tackle the challenges of living the gospel over the coming week.
I’ve had good friends who became bishops and stake presidents, and I know that they too have doctrines and practises they’re not sure about, unanswered questions. But they don’t want to be misunderstood or inadvertently introduce doubt in others, so they won’t discuss such things except in intimate settings with trusted friends. That’s wise. But they wouldn’t want to call themselves New Order Mormons just because they have private opinions about non-core doctrines. Why would you need to do that? To justify yourself in not embracing full participation. To identify with others who don’t wish to conform. Pride–not only do you not need to strive, you can feel cool and intellectually superior while you do it. To feel okay about getting a temple recommend when they’re pretty sure they don’t meet the obvious spirit of the questions.
I know that not all who would be attracted by ‘NOMism’ feel like faithful members are too lazy or studid or plain hypocritical to understand or agree with them, but in my experience many do (and there’s nothing particulary “New” about such people). Plenty of truly smart people have room in their philosophy for faith–and doubt–without subverting the church and it’s leadership. But as I say, if it’s just a handy way to interact with others on an anonymous message board, then sure. New Order Mormons. Why not?
(btw, Jared, PLEASE – it’s ‘sacred’ not ‘scared’. I don’t want to make any scared covenants.)
Hello,
Just a comment. This is such a hot subject because it is such a risky subject for those people who honestly doubt and yet are not content with the idea of a huge and ugly cultural rift in their lives. There is a lot to be said about this that I will not say. For one, I would prefer to attend for now– to look for Christ in sacrament meeting, to read the New Testament, and to continue to test what I believe is the most probable truth. I am not apostasizing, I am still seeking. I am close to and have faith in Christ but I presently doubt Mormonism for specific reasons. Believing Mormons cannot concieve of any reason to doubt except sin and following Satan, but yes, there are honest reasons to doubt. I am not a sinner or a bad person– I am still hoping, studying, and relying on the Grace of Christ. Am I an adulterer, a boozer, or a porn addict? No. None of those things. I am a long time member…BIC, RM, BYU grad, father of multiple children, 3 time scoutmaster, High Priest and member of the Bishopric.
So many depend on my apparent belief that I cannot at this point disengage. It would be very destructive and definitely a premature cast of the die. Not only will it surely be career ending for me, but I will be destroying some things I cannot rebuild…So I stay and seek. I prefer to be on the fence now; not on a timetable, but honestly deciding during the time I have.
Like many who wrote in previously, I will be faced with a real decision the day my recommend expires. If I do not beleive in the divinity of the Mormon Church, then consequently I do not worry about getting a temple recommend as a worthy non belieiver…to imagine so is circular logic. To an unbeleiver there is no sanctity in the temple. Unfortunately, I am not alone in my dilemma. A perusal of the NOM board will reveal at least one more Bishop (I am not a Bishop, but a counselor) in the group. This is not because he is a bad person, but because he is trying to be a follower of Christ, and an honest person. So he stays and seeks.
I stay and seek.
Simon.
Mark–thanks for your wonderful comment. Also, thanks for pointing out my spelling errors. LOL-even a spell checker can’t entirely cover up my talent for spelling.
Simon–thanks for your comment. Stay and seek is a good course to follow.
I am Indigenous to these lands…I am American Indian…and a member of the church…My struggle has been trying to find my identity as a native woman and as a woman of the church. My faith has never been strong…I’ll admit that…and I have been active and inactive for many years.
I’m a convert to the church and am a product of systemic indoctrination into “Mormon culture.”
‘Mormon Culture” I reject 100%
In fact if I ever had to live in Utah again I’d choose to slit my wrists…that how much I loathe Utah.
With that said…a year ago I wasn’t even thinking about the church. But through the Lord’s grace and love…a transformation occurred in my life…I honestly believe, through my experiences in the past year, that the Lord loved me back to His church.
with that said…I doubt that many of you have even experienced a FRACTION of the pain and hardships that I have had to endure.
I live on my Indian reservation and its tough living out here…but I wouldn’t be anywhere else…and would not move for all the honors of the world…
despite the many hardships I’ve faced…I love the Lord with all my heart. I love my Creator…My Father with all my heart.
I am so grateful for the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I thank my Great God that he loved me back and strengthened me in my faith even with all my doubts and lack of understanding…
AHO!
So, Simon, Sharon, would you call yourselves “New Order Mormons”? I wouldn’t. Every ward has plenty of people struggling with this or that doctrine or practise. I would have no problem accepting you as a friend and brother/sister and welcome you worshipping and serving with me [although, Simon, a bishop's councillor needs to be relatively strong in their faith in order to minister to others' spiritual needs effectively]. Most of the Saints I have known would heartily agree.
But I have never lived in the Mormon west, so the negative cultural aspects of that experience are totally foreign to me, and sadden me insofar as they are true (and from what I read there’s plenty of evidence that the complaints are all too true). Ironically, while the church ESTABLISHMENT may he mature in those places, such attitudes against those who doubt shows a lack of SPIRITUAL maturity on their part. In eastern Canada where I grew up, families with both parents strong in the church were a minority. When a new bishop needs to be called there may be only a dozen men in the ward meeting even the minimum qualifications. Probably 75% of my home ward would have been adult converts. If you only went to church with people who understood and accepted EVERYTHING, you’d be awfully lonely.
As I said in my previous post, your doubt is probably just a matter of degree – every member has areas they’re not sure about or have unanswered questions. Matters of faith (almost by definition) seldom make sense to our logical mind and there’s always this tension within ourselves: “that’s just so bizarre- I don’t understand it, but I can’t deny the spirit I’ve felt, the answers to prayers, so it must be so”. For many people the intuitive (spriritual) side can convince the reasoning side to step aside – the evidence of the heart simply overwhelms the logical doubts. To learn how to do this is one of the reasons for our being here on earth, as Paul said, to “walk by faith, not by sight”. Jesus said to the man who asked for his child to be healed, “If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.” And straightway the father … said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.” (Mark 9:23-24)
The NOM thing seems to imply a different attitude to doubt, though: a resistance to the idea that you might be wrong and the faithful ones have it right, a resistance to repentance, even a desire to promote your own agenda. In short, pride. It’s this we cannot, must not accept.
Mark:
NO I wouldn’t consider myself a “New Order Mormon…”
I believe the Lord has put me through the refiners fire a time or two and I have had to make choices that I wasn’t too thrilled about…but I believe my actions reflected my willingness to submit to the will of the Lord…
I am willing and continue to strive to humbly submit to the Lord’s will…as a little child. Its hard…but I’m trying.
and yes…rock solid FAITH in the Lord Jesus Christ is an everyday process that i also am working on.
I desire to believe. I want to believe.
And my testimony grows ever stronger.
I think the “NOM” people are just living in a fantasy world, they’re looking for a reason to justify their unbridled thirst for sin. Why else would anyone question why Pres. Hinckley denounced the teaching of godhood, why else would they frown upon what Brigham Young said about killing those who are interracially married? Why do “NOM’s” think there’s anything wrong with Joseph Smith marrying at least 30 women? How silly they are!
Why do these so called “NOM” people get upset with the revelations from god which contradict earlier god inspired messages about plural marriage, the word of wisdom, and allowing African Americans to hold the priesthood? Do they believe it’s wrong for god to change His mind? Give me a break – please.
I just don’t get it – these “new order Mormons” – or whatever – are obviously looking for a reason to justify their warped viewpoints, thinking they’ll get away with sin because the church has a few issues which aren’t false but don’t develop a strong testimony of faith. They’ll dwindle and perish – it’s just a passing fad.
Jared,
I dont’ have time to read all the comments, but briefly, NOM’s will stop “lying” to get a temple recommend when the Church allows our children to have a civil marriage before being sealed in the temple. To be denied attendance at one’s child’s marriage is unconscionable.
Mark, you are wrong to believe a counselor has to have a strong testimony to minister to spiritual needs. My husband just served for 7 years as bishop of a Salt Lake valley ward. If members were asked,they’d vote him the best bishop that ward’s ever had. I’ve heard that from many members. My husband has been a NOM for as long as I’ve known him (40 years). He doesn’t hang out with NOM’s or blogs but never, during his tenure did he ever say “I Know the Church is true, BOM, JS true” etc. He hopes it’s true, but is not at all sure. He’s a voracious student of all kinds of history–not just Church appoved–and knows too much. That made him a very compassionate bishop and one who never judged another “less valiant” than he is.
In you original post, Jared, you talked about a 4th way. I don’t get it, most of us NOM’s have confided in someone. And besides whatever happened to “to thine own self be true?” Most of us are where we are because we could no longer live the lie we have been telling ourselves.
As to the Church being accepting of all degrees of faith. Please! Only if “you have a desire to believe.” When you have come to the conclusion that the Church isn’t “true” you’re passed the point to have a desire to believe.
Jane–
I am trying to understand how you and your husband seem untroubled by deceiving those you love, and those you “serve” in your church callings. To me that is unconscionable. I’m not saying this in a mean way, I’m just astonished!
I wouldn’t spend a moment at church without having a testimony of the truefulness of its claims.
For the life of me, I just don’t seem to be able to get my mind around the idea that there are wonderful people who serve in the church but don’t believe its basic premise that Joseph Smith is God’s prophet.
I wish you the best, but I see that you are building a “house of cards” that one day will be seen for what it really is by those you are deceiving.
Jared,
I think most NOMs are honest with the people they trust. This may only be with immediate family or may include their Bishop. However, it takes time to know who you can trust. Some leaders and members overreact in negative ways that can cause damage to your family and yourself, so most NOMs take their time when choosing who to share their more unorthodox thoughts with.
When you go through a crisis of faith you find there are very few people you can trust. It took me several months before I even had the courage to tell my wife I was doubting the truth claims of the Church. It is not an easy thing for someone to go through (that’s an understatement). Most NOM aren’t casual about their disbelief. The reasons we have chosen to disbelieve the LDS faith, in part or completely, are based in reality not made up anti-Mormon garbage.
It’s a sad reality that most LDS members become defensive and even combative when you bring up what is causing your disbelief. Some even go so far as to accuse you of some great sin! It is no wonder why, after a few attempts to talk with others, they choose to keep it to themselves.
Jay,
I can only imagine how difficult it is for some people to deal with the life challenges associated with being a NOM. I’m sure it can be on the same level as death and divorce.
But as we see everyday, people deal with the harsh realities of life and move on successfully.
“For the life of me, I just don’t seem to be able to get my mind around the idea that there are wonderful people who serve in the church but don’t believe its basic premise that Joseph Smith is God’s prophet.” A NOM’s view may be that JS wasn’t a prophet, that there is no God, that God speaks to everyone and not just prophets, or that JS is one of God’s prophets and so is Mohammed, Buddha, etc. Or a NOM may have a more nuanced view of what a “prophet” is – that a prophet may be a deeply flawed human with moments of inspiration just like everyone else. Defining NOMism is not possible because there are so many varieties of the same. It’s the desire of those with more “mainstream” views to categorize everything as black and white or “in” or “out” that creates the NOM bucket in the first place, which isn’t a single “way” – it’s the leftovers of Mormonism. I don’t suppose I’m saying it any better than anyone else here.
Additionally, I would caution against calling NOMs deceptive when it is we who deceive ourselves. A NOM is incapable of deceiving someone who is capable of discerning the truth. Very few NOMs would feel it’s acceptable to be inauthentic or to lie outright. They may instead feel more comfortable with a nuanced interpretation. That’s not lying. If a NOM is capable and committed to living the church standards and can render a hope in the existence of God and the good in JS, that is a sufficiently positive answer to the TR questions.
The issue arises when TBMs are intolerant of nuance. Some people are more concerned with protecting the exclusiveness of the church (the super-specialness of TR-holders, for example) rather than broadening the tent to include all who desire to be in it, even if they can only abide the fringes. Jesus Christ spent his life in the fringes. Christianity was born in the fringes of Judaism. Apparently, the fringes are a good place, too.
Jared – I appreciate your thoughtful comments, and I realize this is a tough concept to consider. Personally, I think there’s much more nuance in belief among all church members. Some put more stock in their spiritual experiences than others. Some feel inauthentic in doing so. We all have different spiritual gifts.
Hey Jared,
I would be considered a NOM and participate on the NOM forum, although I think I’ve just about graduated from there (-:
I do not lie about my beliefs. I no longer attend Church because it’s not a spiritual experience, although I understand temple and church attendance provides catharsis for many church members.
Here’s why many of us never tell others about our beliefs: Nobody ever asks.
When asked why I don’t attend very often and who, why and how I’ve been offended (or sinned), my response is always basically the same; “No. Nobody has offended me (or, I haven’t sinned). It has to do with my personal beliefs.”
I get lectures about being offended, about why it’s important to go every week, hold callings, read scriptures, pray, etc…
But one thing nobody has ever asked is(this includes a Bishop, the High Priest Group leader, a counselor in the Stake Presidency and others), “Well, what are the beliefs that have caused you to stop attending Church?”
My point is, nobody ever asks. I think many NOMs would tell people about their beliefs if they were asked directly.
What would you have us do when God teaches us that the LDS Church is not everything it claims to be? Would you have every one of us become rabid and vocal ex-Mormons even if we still find value in the Christian ethics, values and some teachings of the Church? What does volunteering unsolicited information to leaders acheive for a NOM like me? I’ll wait until they’re interested enough to ask sincerely, and listen.
But so far, in my experience, they’ve deceived themselves into believing their “milk-strippings” stories about people like me, even when I tell them their reasons are not true.
I and many others are not being deceptive in our beliefs. The problem is that nobody cares to know.
But really, if they did know, what would they say? Maybe it’s just easier not to know.
“Is deceiving your loved ones and friends the best solution?”
If it’s good enough for J.S. (secret marriages to other men’s wives), it’s good enough for me.
Hawkgrrl–
It’s always nice to read your comments. I always learn something.
Coming to the Bloggernacle has been a valuable experience. I’ve been able to see a dimension of church membership that is invisible in our ward houses.
I agree that TBM make many mistakes with nuances. Most mistakes are forgivable though. For the most part I think the church is doing a good job trying to “perfect the saints”. The main reason I feel that way is that they are sincere in their efforts to create unity and brotherhood. There is much unfeigned love manifest by leaders and members to all levels of faith.
When it comes to deception I get worried. The only time it can be justified is when two principles come into conflict and the higher principle prevails. If I were living in Nazis Germany I would deceive those who came to my door looking for Jews my parents were hiding. The higher principle of resisting evil perpetuated by Hitler would allow deception. Killing in war is another example of principles conflicting and the higher principle allows for acts that otherwise would be sin.
Deceiving church leaders to attend a child’s temple wedding is compounding deception (the first deception being untruthful to one’s child about one’s real testimony) for a selfish reason and doesn’t meet the standard illustrated above.
ed42 in his comment justified deceiving church leaders based on secret marriages. In this case Joseph was following the Lord will. The Lord is the ultimate source of right and wrong when principles are in conflict. At least one of the women involved in these arrangements told Joseph she wouldn’t think of such a thing unless an angel came to her. Joseph said he would arrange for that, she testified it happened (see http://www.ldshistory.net/pc/merlbyu.htm).
All of us have our agency, however, there will be a judgment. We’re accountable to God for what we do with the gift of life.
James–
Thanks for you comment.
You said: “My point is, nobody ever asks”
I agree. Too many lectures and not enough empathy leading to greater understanding.
I run into the same thing, but on the other side of the coin. I’ve been testifying to the reality of the gifts of the Spirit in the Bloggernacle for nearly two years. No one ever ask questions that I think should be asked.
That is the other side of the coin, and the answer illustrates my point.
Nobody asks, because they think they already have the answers. In my case, the TBMs don’t ask why I’ve reduced my participation, because they think they already know. And no answer I have ever given has made them believe otherwise.
In your case, nobody asks you, because they already have an explanation. For example, nobody is going to ask you what your specific spiritual revelations have been, because they already suspect they’ll not believe your answers, or will explain them away as something else.
It took acts of God and personal revelation/inspiration from God to change me into the person I am now. I thank God every day for that. It seems paradoxical that I believe God has led me to a place that seems to be in some ways, in direct opposition to where you believe God has led you.
You seem like a kind person who considers the humanity in other people. And I also certainly understand why NOM types would pose a problem for you.
Secondarily, your response to Hawkgirl, I have a point to make. I would agree with you that in the case of hiding Jews and lying to the Nazis, the morally right thing would be to lie about keeping Jews in your home.
What you are missing is that this is exactly what NOMs with temple recommends are doing.
For many NOMs, family far exceeds the importance of any Church or claimed authority. So choosing to be involved in important family events is the morally correct thing to do, even if they have to lie. They view the authority of the Church as unimportant because they don’t believe in it. They are not lying to anyone whom they believe to have any spiritual power, authority, or clout with God. They are choosing what they believe to be the higher and vastly more important thing in their eyes: family.
Mind you, I don’t do this. I’m just telling you the other side.
James–
I understand that some NOM feel they have legitimate reason for obtaining a temple recommend by deception. The problem with it is that they are disrespecting not only the Lord and his church but the one they profess to love.
I can’t help but think that a person who will go to that extreme to obtain a temple recommend will more likely than not have other areas that they practice deception in. Deception can become a way of life once we employ it a few times. It can become part of ones personality just as virtue can.
Thanks for you comments.
Quote…
I can’t help but think that a person who will go to that extreme to obtain a temple recommend will more likely than not have other areas that they practice deception in. Deception can become a way of life once we employ it a few times. It can become part of ones personality just as virtue can.
Very offensive Jared. I am NOM but have been very forthright with my leaders about my beliefs and so I currently do not hold a recommend. I have a daughter who will be of age in a couple of years and so I have to consider if I am going to let the church come between me and my own flesh and blood or will I simply have a change of heart and say the “right” things in order to be part of my daughters wedding. Having been a lifelong member and involved in many leadership positions I am more than aware of how many members of the church participate unworthily and to be honest it is clear that honesty doesn’t really matter to the church. Appearance is all that matters. I always considered honesty one of the foundations of my life but after finding out how dishonest the church has been to me I no longer feel any obligation to be honest with the church. Maybe the church should be a little more respecting to its faithful members and then it might deserve some respect in return.
Jared,
NOMs do not believe the Church is the Lord’s Church. So lying to get a temple recommend is not a lie they are telling to the Lord or to the Lord’s Church, at least not in their beliefs.
Besides, we both know you can’t lie to the Lord. It’s impossible.
Many NOMs believe in God, and they know that in some situations they have to choose the lesser of 2 evils: 1)Lie to a Church they believe to be false or 2)Not be present to support their child’s marriage ceremony.
Really, I don’t know why I’m explaining their POV, since I don’t lie to get a temple recommend (-:
Here’s the real dilemma for the Church: It’s the Church’s problem.
The Church has people going to the temple who should not, by its rules, be attending. I’m sure at least some leaders are aware of this at the highest levels.
What can they do? A doctrinal inquisition? Shouldn’t they do something?
Trying to talk sense into closet non-believers will not work, because they are non-believers. No talk of “eternal consequences” or “you’ve been lying to the Lord” is going to work on a non-believer…because they don’t believe. It’s something they’ve already grappled with and resolved in their own minds: They choose family over a church they believe is false (I mean, wouldn’t we all choose family over any false thing?)
So, it’s not the problem of the NOM individuals. It’s the Church’s problem, because the Church is the only one who cares. As long as the Church and its members try to project its problems on people who could care less, the problem will not go away.
The Church needs to own the “problem” if it’s going to resolve it. Or, maybe the virtual silence from general authorities about the problem is a kind of resolution. Who knows?
lightblub–
I understand your concerns and feelings to a certain extent. I hope you can find what you are looking for. I think honesty is the best way to travel whatever path we’re on. Especially with ourselves.
Regarding your thoughts about the church deceiving you. It seems to me that you must have been in leadership meetings (from what you said), have you ever encountered deception in those meetings? Did the leaders you associated with scheme and plan ways to deceive members of your ward or stake?
Additionally, withholding information isn’t necessarily deceptive.
James–
Thanks for commenting. I enjoyed your remarks.
we shall see whose ‘house of cards’ falls first. The church should be grateful I still boost their stats!
I have to admit I did not read all 49 comments above, so maybe someone has already said what I am about to write. So, sorry if it’s redundant. But, I think honesty is the main ingredient of NOMs or members at StayLDS.com. The fact that these groups exist in the first place fulfills your requirements for a so-called fourth option. These people are finding others to listen to them; places where they can honestly express their doubts, confusions, and hopes. Many of them have at least one person they can talk to personally. But if not, they use the message boards as a form of discussion and catharsis. They help each other find ways to stay in the LDS church with integrity, without blatant deception. It is true that they are usually not completely open with orthodox members about their positions on many issues, but your fourth option, your criticism, doesn’t require them to be. And you are correct in assuming it should not be required. I also think most NOMs view their positions in the church as being healthy for Mormonism; that they are slowly, but surely, contributing to a more open, accepting church, which ultimately leads to greater spiritual, emotional, physical, and intellectual satisfaction for its members.
James -
“Trying to talk sense into closet non-believers will not work, because they are non-believers. No talk of “eternal consequences” or “you’ve been lying to the Lord” is going to work on a non-believer…because they don’t believe. It’s something they’ve already grappled with and resolved in their own minds: They choose family over a church they believe is false (I mean, wouldn’t we all choose family over any false thing?)”
I found this comment interesting. I believe the inverse. Trying to talk sense and reason into an open believer will not work, because they are believers ; ).
I personally do not consider myself NOM. I am a Mormon on a very deep level, I pay a full tithe, I sit in counsel with our congregations Bishopric, I hold a Temple recommend, I give my spouse and child blessings when appropriate and actively participate in sunday meetings. Yet, I doubt the historical validity of the Book of Mormon, I am unsure of the existence of an embodied God (although I strongly believe in the existence of God the creator, even if he has no body), I believe the fall to be a very meaningful myth, and the doctrine of redemption from the fall to also be very rich in meaning. Both of these doctrines have crucial lessons for mankind whether or not they were literal events. My question is does this exclude me from the blessings the church has to offer? I have been open with these views (in the proper forums) with my Bishop, spouse, Stake president, and family. I am not being deceptive in the least. I believe most NOMS, and many members of the church are like me.
I am finding the church is becoming far more open. To continue this openess is a positive thing. We have a shared history. We are Mormons. If the church decides to show people like me the door, the impact will be devastating. The church has room for all kinds.