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	<title>Comments on: New Order Mormons-A Path of Deception</title>
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	<link>http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2009/01/new-order-mormons-a-path-of-deception/</link>
	<description>...declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost.</description>
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		<title>By: Jared</title>
		<link>http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2009/01/new-order-mormons-a-path-of-deception/comment-page-1/#comment-2609</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Aug 2010 14:31:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/?p=388#comment-2609</guid>
		<description>I agree, this is a concern.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree, this is a concern.</p>
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		<title>By: LDS Anarchist</title>
		<link>http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2009/01/new-order-mormons-a-path-of-deception/comment-page-1/#comment-2604</link>
		<dc:creator>LDS Anarchist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Aug 2010 03:19:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/?p=388#comment-2604</guid>
		<description>NOM appears to be just the first stage in the break-up of the church.  An internal stage.  Its appearance is right on schedule, prophetically speaking.  Next on the horizon is the external break-up.  (See &lt;a href=&quot;http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/6/14#14&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;3 Ne. 6: 14&lt;/a&gt;.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NOM appears to be just the first stage in the break-up of the church.  An internal stage.  Its appearance is right on schedule, prophetically speaking.  Next on the horizon is the external break-up.  (See <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/6/14#14" rel="nofollow">3 Ne. 6: 14</a>.)</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2009/01/new-order-mormons-a-path-of-deception/comment-page-1/#comment-2603</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Aug 2010 21:49:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/?p=388#comment-2603</guid>
		<description>I agree with the author that dishonesty is not good, whether its focus is outward or inward.  

But I believe he is highly mistaken to associate the NOM position as the dishonest one.  Rather, I think the NOM movement is born of a sincere desire of many mormons to be more honest with themselves and others than they previously have been.  To be sure, they may not be publicly open about all their doubts, particularly at church meetings or in family settings, creating perhaps a misleading image of themselves to others.  But this is partly to avoid greater harm, and it is also precisely how the Church has asked disbelieving Church members to behave.  According to Elder Holland, disbelievers are welcome to attend as long as they are not public about their disbelief.  The Church works to create the appearance of unanimity among church members in how they believe, even though it is a highly false appearance.  For example, testimony meeting is not an open forum for the discussion of all the beliefs and doubts that members in the congregation are feeling at that moment.  Because of the one-sided pep rally nature of such meetings and programs - which carries over into family and social settings in which those who express doubts are often treated in an unfriendly way or similarly asked to be quiet - those who doubt  often fear that they are alone or that their doubts are very rare.  They believe that more experienced church members must have a way to resolve them (and are not still carrying those doubts).  And so they feel embarrassed and ashamed, and they feel an intense social pressure to just bury those doubts and pretend they don&#039;t exist, and trust the apparent unanimity around them.  In truth, those doubters are not so alone, but are probably surrounded by many other silent doubters (including many adults and even respected leaders in the ward who are presently doubting) but who are encouraged to hide such thoughts from others.   In my view, a NOM is someone who has too much of a conscience to bury those doubts forever as if truth doesn&#039;t matter.  A NOM is one who hates pretending, even though that is what he is so often encouraged by official church sources to do.     

While some NOMs might lie to their bishops to get temple recommends, that is not what being a NOM is primarily about and there are many NOMs who refuse to lie under such circumstances.  I am one who does not lie to get a temple recommend.  There are of course traditional mormons also who sometimes lie, and on a few occasions church leaders have themselves lied or encouraged lying for the greater good.  (Remember President Hinckley&#039;s statement on public television that he &quot;doesn&#039;t know&quot; whether the Church teaches that man may be like God?)  So I would not confuse lying with what being a NOM is.  

But since the author is strongly in favor of honesty, and apparently thinks this means more than just avoidance of lying, I wonder what he thinks a father who disbelieves Church doctrine should do when his wife is teaching the children religious things at family home evening that he personally thinks are false.  Should he speak up and be honest to his children about his doubts?  I have never heard a traditional mormon encourage doubters to be honest in teaching their children - rather, I suppose the author of this article only encourages such honesty in private with bishops or other close confidants, as if doubting is an acknowledged sin that needs to be purged.  But if a doubter is serious about his doubts, then he cannot assume that his doubts will be purged by the bishop&#039;s formula for faith or by the prescription in Alma 32 (many have already tried that multiple times).  And it seems honestly in our doubts should especially exist towards children and not reserved just for bishops.  

In my experience, I have repeatedly been encouraged by regular church members, leaders, and my wife to be silent (and therefore false) about my doubts to children and to impressionable people in the church, as well as in all public settings.  Most recently the issue was whether my son should go on a mission.  I do not believe it is a good decision for him to go, and in fact I wish that I had not gone on a mission.  I even feel guilty for being duped and pressured into going, only be put in the position of casting pressure and duped arguments on others.  Whether they are right or wrong, those are my feelings.  And trust me, neither my wife nor bishop has encouraged me to be honest to my son or the youth of our ward about those feelings.  Instead, they would like for me to convey to my son that my mission was the best two years of my life and that it is the best thing he can do for his.  That is honesty?   

And trust me, the discomfort or even punishment that disbelieving church members receive for sharing doubts even in relatively private settings is very real.  Absolutely, jobs are at risk (depending on the situation), marriages are at risk (depending on the spouse), long-term friendships are at risk, and family harmony is at risk.  I have experienced it and know others who have.  It is the silent tragedy in many lives, and the silent threat that holds the pep rally together.    

If the LDS Church and traditional church members are in favor of full disclosure and honesty by those who doubt, such as this author has encouraged, then I would expect the Church to create more openness and time for discussion of such ideas in meetings and elsewhere.  Its not hard to do.  In a typical college class it is encouraged for students to express differing views and think for themselves, raise questions, and explore lines of argument without knowing where they will lead.  A confident teacher is not threatened by this, but rather is proud to see the students thinking for themselves and expressing ideas, even though many ideas are easily rebutted.  That is an honest process of discussion, exploration and learning.  We don&#039;t all have to agree in the end, but can at least acknowledge that we respect each others&#039; views.  But instead, the Church has strongly chosen the pep rally model for learning, not the open discussion model for learning.  

At the least, the Church could take action to make those who doubt feel comfortable expressing their views without fear of social ostracism, whether at church or elsewhere.  But I don&#039;t see this happening.  Rather, it appears that the threat of social ostracism is one of the most powerful tools that true believers have for creating the false image of unity that they thrive on.   

Yes, I believe in honestly.  That&#039;s why I have written this comment, and that is why I sympathize with those who call themselves NOMs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with the author that dishonesty is not good, whether its focus is outward or inward.  </p>
<p>But I believe he is highly mistaken to associate the NOM position as the dishonest one.  Rather, I think the NOM movement is born of a sincere desire of many mormons to be more honest with themselves and others than they previously have been.  To be sure, they may not be publicly open about all their doubts, particularly at church meetings or in family settings, creating perhaps a misleading image of themselves to others.  But this is partly to avoid greater harm, and it is also precisely how the Church has asked disbelieving Church members to behave.  According to Elder Holland, disbelievers are welcome to attend as long as they are not public about their disbelief.  The Church works to create the appearance of unanimity among church members in how they believe, even though it is a highly false appearance.  For example, testimony meeting is not an open forum for the discussion of all the beliefs and doubts that members in the congregation are feeling at that moment.  Because of the one-sided pep rally nature of such meetings and programs &#8211; which carries over into family and social settings in which those who express doubts are often treated in an unfriendly way or similarly asked to be quiet &#8211; those who doubt  often fear that they are alone or that their doubts are very rare.  They believe that more experienced church members must have a way to resolve them (and are not still carrying those doubts).  And so they feel embarrassed and ashamed, and they feel an intense social pressure to just bury those doubts and pretend they don&#8217;t exist, and trust the apparent unanimity around them.  In truth, those doubters are not so alone, but are probably surrounded by many other silent doubters (including many adults and even respected leaders in the ward who are presently doubting) but who are encouraged to hide such thoughts from others.   In my view, a NOM is someone who has too much of a conscience to bury those doubts forever as if truth doesn&#8217;t matter.  A NOM is one who hates pretending, even though that is what he is so often encouraged by official church sources to do.     </p>
<p>While some NOMs might lie to their bishops to get temple recommends, that is not what being a NOM is primarily about and there are many NOMs who refuse to lie under such circumstances.  I am one who does not lie to get a temple recommend.  There are of course traditional mormons also who sometimes lie, and on a few occasions church leaders have themselves lied or encouraged lying for the greater good.  (Remember President Hinckley&#8217;s statement on public television that he &#8220;doesn&#8217;t know&#8221; whether the Church teaches that man may be like God?)  So I would not confuse lying with what being a NOM is.  </p>
<p>But since the author is strongly in favor of honesty, and apparently thinks this means more than just avoidance of lying, I wonder what he thinks a father who disbelieves Church doctrine should do when his wife is teaching the children religious things at family home evening that he personally thinks are false.  Should he speak up and be honest to his children about his doubts?  I have never heard a traditional mormon encourage doubters to be honest in teaching their children &#8211; rather, I suppose the author of this article only encourages such honesty in private with bishops or other close confidants, as if doubting is an acknowledged sin that needs to be purged.  But if a doubter is serious about his doubts, then he cannot assume that his doubts will be purged by the bishop&#8217;s formula for faith or by the prescription in Alma 32 (many have already tried that multiple times).  And it seems honestly in our doubts should especially exist towards children and not reserved just for bishops.  </p>
<p>In my experience, I have repeatedly been encouraged by regular church members, leaders, and my wife to be silent (and therefore false) about my doubts to children and to impressionable people in the church, as well as in all public settings.  Most recently the issue was whether my son should go on a mission.  I do not believe it is a good decision for him to go, and in fact I wish that I had not gone on a mission.  I even feel guilty for being duped and pressured into going, only be put in the position of casting pressure and duped arguments on others.  Whether they are right or wrong, those are my feelings.  And trust me, neither my wife nor bishop has encouraged me to be honest to my son or the youth of our ward about those feelings.  Instead, they would like for me to convey to my son that my mission was the best two years of my life and that it is the best thing he can do for his.  That is honesty?   </p>
<p>And trust me, the discomfort or even punishment that disbelieving church members receive for sharing doubts even in relatively private settings is very real.  Absolutely, jobs are at risk (depending on the situation), marriages are at risk (depending on the spouse), long-term friendships are at risk, and family harmony is at risk.  I have experienced it and know others who have.  It is the silent tragedy in many lives, and the silent threat that holds the pep rally together.    </p>
<p>If the LDS Church and traditional church members are in favor of full disclosure and honesty by those who doubt, such as this author has encouraged, then I would expect the Church to create more openness and time for discussion of such ideas in meetings and elsewhere.  Its not hard to do.  In a typical college class it is encouraged for students to express differing views and think for themselves, raise questions, and explore lines of argument without knowing where they will lead.  A confident teacher is not threatened by this, but rather is proud to see the students thinking for themselves and expressing ideas, even though many ideas are easily rebutted.  That is an honest process of discussion, exploration and learning.  We don&#8217;t all have to agree in the end, but can at least acknowledge that we respect each others&#8217; views.  But instead, the Church has strongly chosen the pep rally model for learning, not the open discussion model for learning.  </p>
<p>At the least, the Church could take action to make those who doubt feel comfortable expressing their views without fear of social ostracism, whether at church or elsewhere.  But I don&#8217;t see this happening.  Rather, it appears that the threat of social ostracism is one of the most powerful tools that true believers have for creating the false image of unity that they thrive on.   </p>
<p>Yes, I believe in honestly.  That&#8217;s why I have written this comment, and that is why I sympathize with those who call themselves NOMs.</p>
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		<title>By: I wish I was in Montreal</title>
		<link>http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2009/01/new-order-mormons-a-path-of-deception/comment-page-1/#comment-2566</link>
		<dc:creator>I wish I was in Montreal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 15:58:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/?p=388#comment-2566</guid>
		<description>James -

&quot;Trying to talk sense into closet non-believers will not work, because they are non-believers. No talk of “eternal consequences” or “you’ve been lying to the Lord” is going to work on a non-believer…because they don’t believe. It’s something they’ve already grappled with and resolved in their own minds: They choose family over a church they believe is false (I mean, wouldn’t we all choose family over any false thing?)&quot;

I found this comment interesting. I believe the inverse. Trying to talk sense and reason into an open believer will not work, because they are believers ; ).


I personally do not consider myself NOM. I am a Mormon on a very deep level,  I pay a full tithe, I sit in counsel with our congregations Bishopric, I hold a Temple recommend, I give my spouse and child blessings when appropriate and actively participate in sunday meetings. Yet, I doubt the historical validity of the Book of Mormon, I am unsure of the existence of an embodied God (although I strongly believe in the existence of God the creator, even if he has no body), I believe the fall to be a very meaningful myth, and the doctrine of redemption from the fall to also be very rich in meaning. Both of these doctrines have crucial lessons for mankind whether or not they were literal events. My question is does this exclude me from the blessings the church has to offer? I have been open with these views (in the proper forums) with my Bishop, spouse, Stake president, and family. I am not being deceptive in the least. I believe most NOMS, and many members of the church are like me.

I am finding the church is becoming far more open. To continue this openess is a positive thing. We have a shared history. We are Mormons. If the church decides to show people like me the door, the impact will be devastating. The church has room for all kinds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James -</p>
<p>&#8220;Trying to talk sense into closet non-believers will not work, because they are non-believers. No talk of “eternal consequences” or “you’ve been lying to the Lord” is going to work on a non-believer…because they don’t believe. It’s something they’ve already grappled with and resolved in their own minds: They choose family over a church they believe is false (I mean, wouldn’t we all choose family over any false thing?)&#8221;</p>
<p>I found this comment interesting. I believe the inverse. Trying to talk sense and reason into an open believer will not work, because they are believers ; ).</p>
<p>I personally do not consider myself NOM. I am a Mormon on a very deep level,  I pay a full tithe, I sit in counsel with our congregations Bishopric, I hold a Temple recommend, I give my spouse and child blessings when appropriate and actively participate in sunday meetings. Yet, I doubt the historical validity of the Book of Mormon, I am unsure of the existence of an embodied God (although I strongly believe in the existence of God the creator, even if he has no body), I believe the fall to be a very meaningful myth, and the doctrine of redemption from the fall to also be very rich in meaning. Both of these doctrines have crucial lessons for mankind whether or not they were literal events. My question is does this exclude me from the blessings the church has to offer? I have been open with these views (in the proper forums) with my Bishop, spouse, Stake president, and family. I am not being deceptive in the least. I believe most NOMS, and many members of the church are like me.</p>
<p>I am finding the church is becoming far more open. To continue this openess is a positive thing. We have a shared history. We are Mormons. If the church decides to show people like me the door, the impact will be devastating. The church has room for all kinds.</p>
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		<title>By: Qwan</title>
		<link>http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2009/01/new-order-mormons-a-path-of-deception/comment-page-1/#comment-2137</link>
		<dc:creator>Qwan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:16:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/?p=388#comment-2137</guid>
		<description>I have to admit I did not read all 49 comments above, so maybe someone has already said what I am about to write.  So, sorry if it&#039;s redundant.  But, I think honesty is the main ingredient of NOMs or members at StayLDS.com.  The fact that these groups exist in the first place fulfills your requirements for a so-called fourth option.  These people are finding others to listen to them; places where they can honestly express their doubts, confusions, and hopes.  Many of them have at least one person they can talk to personally.  But if not, they use the message boards as a form of discussion and catharsis.  They help each other find ways to stay in the LDS church with integrity, without blatant deception.  It is true that they are usually not completely open with orthodox members about their positions on many issues, but your fourth option, your criticism, doesn&#039;t require them to be.  And you are correct in assuming it should not be required.  I also think most NOMs view their positions in the church as being healthy for Mormonism; that they are slowly, but surely, contributing to a more open, accepting church, which ultimately leads to greater spiritual, emotional, physical, and intellectual satisfaction for its members.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to admit I did not read all 49 comments above, so maybe someone has already said what I am about to write.  So, sorry if it&#8217;s redundant.  But, I think honesty is the main ingredient of NOMs or members at StayLDS.com.  The fact that these groups exist in the first place fulfills your requirements for a so-called fourth option.  These people are finding others to listen to them; places where they can honestly express their doubts, confusions, and hopes.  Many of them have at least one person they can talk to personally.  But if not, they use the message boards as a form of discussion and catharsis.  They help each other find ways to stay in the LDS church with integrity, without blatant deception.  It is true that they are usually not completely open with orthodox members about their positions on many issues, but your fourth option, your criticism, doesn&#8217;t require them to be.  And you are correct in assuming it should not be required.  I also think most NOMs view their positions in the church as being healthy for Mormonism; that they are slowly, but surely, contributing to a more open, accepting church, which ultimately leads to greater spiritual, emotional, physical, and intellectual satisfaction for its members.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Dogg!</title>
		<link>http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2009/01/new-order-mormons-a-path-of-deception/comment-page-1/#comment-2067</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Dogg!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 08:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/?p=388#comment-2067</guid>
		<description>we shall see whose &#039;house of cards&#039; falls first. The church should be grateful I still boost their stats!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>we shall see whose &#8216;house of cards&#8217; falls first. The church should be grateful I still boost their stats!</p>
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		<title>By: Jared</title>
		<link>http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2009/01/new-order-mormons-a-path-of-deception/comment-page-1/#comment-1726</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 03:50:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/?p=388#comment-1726</guid>
		<description>James--

Thanks for commenting. I enjoyed your remarks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James&#8211;</p>
<p>Thanks for commenting. I enjoyed your remarks.</p>
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		<title>By: Jared</title>
		<link>http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2009/01/new-order-mormons-a-path-of-deception/comment-page-1/#comment-1725</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 03:48:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/?p=388#comment-1725</guid>
		<description>lightblub--

I understand your concerns and feelings to a certain extent. I hope you can find what you are looking for. I think honesty is the best way to travel whatever path we&#039;re on. Especially with ourselves.

Regarding your thoughts about the church deceiving you. It seems to me that you must have been in leadership meetings (from what you said), have you ever encountered deception in those meetings? Did the leaders you associated with scheme and plan ways to deceive members of your ward or stake?

Additionally, withholding information isn&#039;t necessarily deceptive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lightblub&#8211;</p>
<p>I understand your concerns and feelings to a certain extent. I hope you can find what you are looking for. I think honesty is the best way to travel whatever path we&#8217;re on. Especially with ourselves.</p>
<p>Regarding your thoughts about the church deceiving you. It seems to me that you must have been in leadership meetings (from what you said), have you ever encountered deception in those meetings? Did the leaders you associated with scheme and plan ways to deceive members of your ward or stake?</p>
<p>Additionally, withholding information isn&#8217;t necessarily deceptive.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2009/01/new-order-mormons-a-path-of-deception/comment-page-1/#comment-1723</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 13:00:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/?p=388#comment-1723</guid>
		<description>Jared,

NOMs do not believe the Church is the Lord&#039;s Church.  So lying to get a temple recommend is not a lie they are telling to the Lord or to the Lord&#039;s Church, at least not in their beliefs.  

Besides, we both know you can&#039;t lie to the Lord. It&#039;s impossible. 

Many NOMs believe in God, and they know that in some situations they have to choose the lesser of 2 evils:  1)Lie to a Church they believe to be false or 2)Not be present to support their child&#039;s marriage ceremony.

Really, I don&#039;t know why I&#039;m explaining their POV, since I don&#039;t lie to get a temple recommend  (-:

Here&#039;s the real dilemma for the Church:  It&#039;s the Church&#039;s problem.  

The Church has people going to the temple who should not, by its rules, be attending.  I&#039;m sure at least some leaders are aware of this at the highest levels.

What can they do?  A doctrinal inquisition?  Shouldn&#039;t they do something? 

Trying to talk sense into closet non-believers will not work, because they are non-believers.  No talk of &quot;eternal consequences&quot; or &quot;you&#039;ve been lying to the Lord&quot; is going to work on a non-believer...because they don&#039;t believe.  It&#039;s something they&#039;ve already grappled with and resolved in their own minds:  They choose family over a church they believe is false (I mean, wouldn&#039;t we all choose family over any false thing?)

So, it&#039;s not the problem of the NOM individuals.  It&#039;s the Church&#039;s problem, because the Church is the only one who cares.  As long as the Church and its members try to project its problems on people who could care less, the problem will not go away.  

The Church needs to own the &quot;problem&quot; if it&#039;s going to resolve it.  Or, maybe the virtual silence from general authorities about the problem is a kind of resolution.  Who knows?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jared,</p>
<p>NOMs do not believe the Church is the Lord&#8217;s Church.  So lying to get a temple recommend is not a lie they are telling to the Lord or to the Lord&#8217;s Church, at least not in their beliefs.  </p>
<p>Besides, we both know you can&#8217;t lie to the Lord. It&#8217;s impossible. </p>
<p>Many NOMs believe in God, and they know that in some situations they have to choose the lesser of 2 evils:  1)Lie to a Church they believe to be false or 2)Not be present to support their child&#8217;s marriage ceremony.</p>
<p>Really, I don&#8217;t know why I&#8217;m explaining their POV, since I don&#8217;t lie to get a temple recommend  (-:</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the real dilemma for the Church:  It&#8217;s the Church&#8217;s problem.  </p>
<p>The Church has people going to the temple who should not, by its rules, be attending.  I&#8217;m sure at least some leaders are aware of this at the highest levels.</p>
<p>What can they do?  A doctrinal inquisition?  Shouldn&#8217;t they do something? </p>
<p>Trying to talk sense into closet non-believers will not work, because they are non-believers.  No talk of &#8220;eternal consequences&#8221; or &#8220;you&#8217;ve been lying to the Lord&#8221; is going to work on a non-believer&#8230;because they don&#8217;t believe.  It&#8217;s something they&#8217;ve already grappled with and resolved in their own minds:  They choose family over a church they believe is false (I mean, wouldn&#8217;t we all choose family over any false thing?)</p>
<p>So, it&#8217;s not the problem of the NOM individuals.  It&#8217;s the Church&#8217;s problem, because the Church is the only one who cares.  As long as the Church and its members try to project its problems on people who could care less, the problem will not go away.  </p>
<p>The Church needs to own the &#8220;problem&#8221; if it&#8217;s going to resolve it.  Or, maybe the virtual silence from general authorities about the problem is a kind of resolution.  Who knows?</p>
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		<title>By: lightbulb</title>
		<link>http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/2009/01/new-order-mormons-a-path-of-deception/comment-page-1/#comment-1722</link>
		<dc:creator>lightbulb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 04:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/?p=388#comment-1722</guid>
		<description>Quote...
I can’t help but think that a person who will go to that extreme to obtain a temple recommend will more likely than not have other areas that they practice deception in. Deception can become a way of life once we employ it a few times. It can become part of ones personality just as virtue can.

Very offensive Jared. I am NOM but have been very forthright with my leaders about my beliefs and so I currently do not hold a recommend. I have a daughter who will be of age in a couple of years and so I have to consider if I am going to let the church come between me and my own flesh and blood or will I simply have a change of heart and say the &quot;right&quot; things in order to be part of my daughters wedding. Having been a lifelong member and involved in many leadership positions I am more than aware of how many members of the church participate unworthily and to be honest it is clear that honesty doesn&#039;t really matter to the church. Appearance is all that matters. I always considered honesty one of the foundations of my life but after finding out how dishonest the church has been to me I no longer feel any obligation to be honest with the church. Maybe the church should be a little more respecting to its faithful members and then it might deserve some respect in return.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quote&#8230;<br />
I can’t help but think that a person who will go to that extreme to obtain a temple recommend will more likely than not have other areas that they practice deception in. Deception can become a way of life once we employ it a few times. It can become part of ones personality just as virtue can.</p>
<p>Very offensive Jared. I am NOM but have been very forthright with my leaders about my beliefs and so I currently do not hold a recommend. I have a daughter who will be of age in a couple of years and so I have to consider if I am going to let the church come between me and my own flesh and blood or will I simply have a change of heart and say the &#8220;right&#8221; things in order to be part of my daughters wedding. Having been a lifelong member and involved in many leadership positions I am more than aware of how many members of the church participate unworthily and to be honest it is clear that honesty doesn&#8217;t really matter to the church. Appearance is all that matters. I always considered honesty one of the foundations of my life but after finding out how dishonest the church has been to me I no longer feel any obligation to be honest with the church. Maybe the church should be a little more respecting to its faithful members and then it might deserve some respect in return.</p>
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