I suspect that if the Church were to present a more balanced version of its history (and by the way, this is very hard for any organization to do!) it would certainly create a faith crisis for some people. However, admitting that there are human failures and organizational lapses would prevent a worse type of faith crises – those who are faithful Saints that come across incontrovertible evidence that what they were told was not the entire truth and then feel deceived and walk away. By being candid that our history was as turbulent and paradoxical as the New Testament times, we allow for people to seek their own light and participate and believe at the level they can rather than feeling they are no longer welcome or are hypocrites. Everybody has questions and issues – why not make that OK?

I don’t think you are condemning anyone…yet, I think you see no justification if a NOM best option is to be “dishonest” or hide something to keep their family intact. Basically, find a different way to deal with the issue, correct?

Criminal theft of money for a car does not equate to masking ones beliefs. (in my view)

NOMs will do what they need to do – TBMs will have the view of NOMs as stated in the above posts – deception aside, how do we all get along?

I don’t feel I’m condemning anyone, however, I am saying that being dishonest isn’t the way to deal with this issue. NOM can do better.

One way to view what I am trying to say would be to change categories. You seem to feel it’s OK to deceive the church, family, and church members. Try thinking of it this way:

Someone practicing deception takes something that is very important to you. For example, they electronically steal a lot money from you. They tell you their reason is to buy a new car for their family.

Does this help you see the reason I don’t go along with deception?

Maybe it does, maybe not. If you choose to embrace deception as a way of life its up to you. However, to condemn those who choose honesty flies in the face of the argument you’re trying to make.

For all the time you spent condemning good people who stay in a difficult situation to please their families and maintain harmony, where are your words of condemnation for a culture of intolerance that creates this situation in the first place? You ought to have plenty of harsh words for a culture that encourages families to ostracize unbelievers and wives to abandon their husbands. Read the accounts of James and Aramis above. How can you not be moved by that? How can you be in denial that our culture really does create a destructive mindset of conformity and intolerance that hurts good people and that virtually requires the weak of faith to be clandestine and marginalized? I expect to hear some harsh words from you on that particular problem.

You said that the only valid reason for going to the temple is to make covenants. You made covenants the first time you went to the temple, and again when you got sealed. Twice at the most. So… why do YOU keep going to the temple? There are no more covenants to make, so it can’t be that. Did it every occur to you that NOMs might have some of the same reasons, or equally good reason, for going to the temple that you do? And how is it, exactly, that NOMs are not keeping their temple covenants?

Remember, we’re talking about ideas and belief here, not actions. NOMs, virtually by definition, are active members of the church who keep the commandments. Chastity, tithing, even WoW. What problem would their presence in the temple cause? They are worthy. They are clean. The only crimes of NOMs are THOUGHT crimes. Yet you would expose their heresy on the rooftops, ban them from the temple, and break up their marriages for their crimes. What every happened to the idea that it’s your actions that count?

Also, I was disappointed that you didn’t answer James’s questions about honesty with his children. You seem to think that perfect honesty is paramount. Do you or do you not think that a disbeliever should be open with his children about his beliefs? Is a father who does not teach his children what he really believes being sinfully deceptive, or not? Is James doing the wrong thing by not undermining his wife’s teachings?

Mark,

You go on at great length about how people with doubts or controversial beliefs or knowledge should not go around sharing those idea or beliefs with other people, to protect their tender testimonies. For most of the post it sounds like you’re refuting Jared’s thesis about the shameful deceptiveness of NOMs for “hiding” their heresy, but then in odd twist you reveal your harsh attitude towards NOMs. Somehow you and James seemed to “agree” with each other after all in your condemnation of NOMs.

So…. which is it? Are NOMs supposed to be completely transparent and open, or keep quiet? The reason that NOMs don’t generally openly volunteer information about their beliefs or lack thereof is because the Church is full of Marks who will condemn you for talking (you’re being an apostate, destroying faith). But the Jareds of the Church will judge you harshly if you don’t talk (you’re being deceptive, a wolf in sheep’s clothing). You’ve placed NOMs in an impossible damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you don’t situation. It sounds like the only outcome that will satisfy both of you, aside from complete re-conversion to literalist Mormonism, is utter abandonment of the Church.

NOMs are not new. The NOM discussion board is relatively new, but there have been NOMs for almost as long as there have been TBMs. It’s not an organized group; there are no leaders, no members, no structure. It’s not a shadow church or subversive sect. It’s just a general category of people. It’s a message board for really good, conscientious people trying to live in a culture and a church where the harsh, conformist, black-or-white, judgmental attitude of the Marks and Jareds, so abundantly displayed in this thread, make their lives lonely and difficult.

You tell quite a story.

There are many paths you can take from here; towards greater faith or greater unbelief. The choice is yours.

Have you considered fasting and praying about your decision?

I’ve been in some tough places too. I found my way out by pleading with God. I tell my story on the following link.

http://www.ldsaliveinchrist.com/jareds-my-experience-with-the-savior/

I wish you the best! God bless.

The temple recommend questions are written very vaguely (and I think intentionally so). Nowhere in the recommend questions is Joseph Smith mentioned by name for instance. Just because someone doesn’t have a cookie-cutter TBM testimony of the Gospel, doesn’t mean that he/she is “lying to get a temple recommend”.

“…I’d just as soon not have them there.”

Some members do not tolerate NOMs or anything similar.
The effect on other members can be very negative on both.

Unconditional love seems to evaporate when a “less then righteous member” is found participating with them.

Anyway, go ahead and cast the first stone at me.

That is a slap in the face to every convert to the Church who had to wave goodbye to their non-member parents at the temple doors on their wedding day. My wife and I did just that because of our testimony of the importance of being married in the House of the Lord. NOMS (or anyone else, for that matter) who lie to gain admittance to the temple need to get over themselves and realize that the world doesn’t revolve around them. If my parents would lie to get into the temple for my wedding, I’d just as soon not have them there.

Just another example of baby-boomer arrogance.