In the two years I’ve been participating in the ‘nacle tales of lost or failing faith is a constant, and enduring leitmotif (Mormon 9:20). On occasion, someone will relate how they had a Spiritual experience that resolved their difficulty with church history or one of the other confounders of faith. But they are rare, receive few comments, and are quickly forgotten.
It seems many ‘nacler’s are stuck in the twilight zone of shrunken faith by choice, and when this carte du jour is challenged by someone (like myself) who can relate miraculous encounters with the things of the Spirit, they are instantly marginalized by the defenders of the status quo.
There are many ways to handle trials to our faith. We can have our faith incrementally destroyed by “studying”, or increased by “studying—it depends on what we’re studying. However, the Lord teaches us to call upon Him in mighty prayer to resolve our trials.
Prayer, fasting and like Spiritual methodologies seem to allude those who are caught in the vortex of ‘nacle faithlessness. In just about every account of those whose faith is overcome by one thing or another, seeking God for an answer isn’t mentioned.
When my faith was challenged I turned to the Lord and I found the promises made in the scriptures, and taught by church leaders to be true (Mormon 9:21). God will support us in our difficulties and trials (Alma 36:3). The gifts of the Spirit are real and powerful and will prevent us from being deceived (D&C 46:8), but we need to be willing to wrestle with the Lord in mighty prayer (Enos 1:2) in order to be possessors of these blessings.
Now, some who read this will be angry. This is typical. I ask: what is there to be angry about? I’ve told my experience and related my sincere feelings. Isn’t that what those who support dwindling faith or faithlessness are doing, and are applauded for doing so by those of like mind.
To those who are struggling with their faith, my hope and message is: try it the Lord’s way with as much gusto as you have put into losing your faith. You might well have a similar experience as I did, and be forever changed. Go here
Thank you for standing for faith! I honestly have come to think the “bloggernacle” is dedicated to the destruction of the faith of the Saints from within our ranks. I see very few online LDS who seek to promote faith, but many who seek to tear it down to promote their social/political views or to show off their intellect by harping on anything negative about the Church they can scrape up.
I have come to choose the LDS blogs I read very carefully because of this reason. I turn to these kinds of blogs to find things that are faith building, there’s already WAY too many things in the world that seek to destroy faith without my having to seek them out.
Thanks for your testimony, Jared. The gifts of the Spirit are indeed operating among the members of the church.
@Seanette Check out my LDS Blog Portal http://www.nothingwavering.org . It aims to promote positive, faith building LDS blogs.
Yes, it’s true there is an irreverent streak in some posts and bloggers. But the community as a whole recognizes the difference between, on the one hand, a little griping or chewing on a tough historical issue and, on the other, advocating against the Church or using criticism as a basis for rejecting the Church. The Bloggernacle did not embrace DAMU blogs. Most blogs monitor their comment section.
15 years ago, I had to change or die: I could not go on living as who I was.
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My Stake President listened for 3 1/2 hours while I put everything on the table in front of him. I then waited to hear what consequences awaited me. I was shocked when he hugged me and told me he loved me. This clearly unconditional love was both the one thing I hadn’t expected and the one thing I needed most. It broke open my heart and then I felt God’s love wash through it, changing it forever. I received the new heart (Ezek 36:26-7), experienced Alma’s mighty change, put on the new man. 15 years later, this nagging sense of well-being persists.
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Aside from the Holy Ghost, what I am is my testimony. I know this and I will not set aside what I do know for things that I do not yet know.
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(Fuller recounting: http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2582#comment-97137)
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“My soul hath been redeemed from the gall of bitterness and bonds of iniquity. I was in the darkest abyss; but now I behold the marvelous light of God. My soul was racked with eternal torment; but I am snatched, and my soul is pained no more.” _ Msh 27:29
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“I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell.” — 2 Ne 33:6
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I’ve lurked around the Bloggernacle and imo, the main problem with many of the people is that they think (in their heart of hearts) they should be running the church.
I think you may not always recognize when ‘naclers are expressing their faith candidly. We may not always bear a testimony in classic form, or beat readers over the head by quoting six scriptures that make the point or spelling out in didactic fashion the moral of the story, but the testimony is obvious if you aren’t depending solely on formula.
Everything Bookslinger writes shows his faith in action, not mere words. Everything Bruce Crow writes on Amateur Mormon Historian about the dedicated Saints of Tennessee who lived their religion despite real threats to their lives is a testimony. Every time I write about an ordinary Saint of the past at Keepa, or post something that shows how broad Mormonism is, how it shapes every facet of our lives and not just our Sunday sermons, every time I show affection for us as a people, with our quirks and foibles, I’m showing you — not just telling you — about my faith and my rejoicing in being part of such an amazing people. BHodges at Life on Gold Plates posts some wonderful explanations of our doctrine and our past. Segullah and Millennial Star and plenty of other Bloggernacle blogs are in the same category.
We hold our own in the comments department, and our commenters express their support and add their own stories — almost never by quoting scripture, though, or bearing the direct kind of testimony that we may not feel comfortable throwing out to an unseen audience that doubtless contains mockers.
I think *you* may be the one overlooking the good in the Bloggernacle, seeing only the bad that you’re looking for, and that you’re oblivious to the faithfulness expressed by a very great many ‘naclers.
Seanette–
Thanks for coming by and expressing your thoughts.
Ben–
The sites that promote faith are growing and they are needed. Thanks for your kind thoughts.
J. Max Wilson–
Thanks for your many contributions to the ‘nacle. Thanks for commenting.
Dave–
I agree with much of what you say. I feel the ‘nacle, at least for some, is an important vehicle to vent in. As you put it, “griping or chewing on a tough historical issue” shouldn’t be done at church so the ‘nacle serves an important purpose that way.
Thanks for commenting.
manaen–
I’m looking forward to reading the link you left. Thanks for coming by.
Unlurking–
Interesting take on the way some in the ‘nacle come across. Thanks for commenting.
Ardis,
I fully agree that there should be a forum where people can openly express their feelings, and not feel like they have to hide their feelings. But there’s also a difference between those bloggers who feel the need to mock others who are trying to live their religion well, and may not have as much doubt. I certainly don’t consider your comments among those, your comments are always amazing. But there is a difference between your mature and balanced writing, and some of the flippant, irreverent, and disrespectful comments many of us enocunter that does destroy faith.
Ardis E. Parshall–
I know I’m not one of your favorites. We have different perspectives on the ‘nacle.
You’re one of the most popular people in the ‘nacle. I’m sure that is important to you. So when I write something that appears to detract from the ‘nacle you want to defend it. I respect that, and I agree with much of what you’ve said.
I haven’t written much that acknowledges the real value of the ‘nacle. I’ve focused on a few things that I feel could be improved.
To my knowledge I’ve never mentioned a blog or an individual by name, maybe I should. I agree with the contributions made by those you’ve mention. Like you said, they do many wonderful things that are visible testimonies.
Ardis, the other day I was reviewing what I would like to do in the future with this blog. I reread comments and emails from those who follow this blog. I don’t get a lot of comments, but I do have enough feed back that let’s me know that some are finding what I write about worthwhile.
The main thing I am trying to emphasize is the doctrine of Christ and the importance of fulfilling our baptism covenant. What I am doing is much like Bookslinger, except I am doing what I can to encourage members to read the Book of Mormon and experience the power of the Holy Ghost that is available to all who will diligently seek after this gift.
As you know, Bookslinger has his share of people who view his efforts as foolishness, and not everyone he offers a Book of Mormon to accepts it.
What we’re doing is a form of missionary work and it has its ups and downs.
Thanks for coming by.
I am a frequent reader of several blogs but I never comment. I am an active member with a leadership calling. My adult children are all faithful, temple recommend holding members. I love much of what the church offers, but I have lost my faith.
My loss of faith was not caused by the bloggernacle. In fact, much of what you criticize about the bloggernacle is what gives me some faint hope that I can regain the faith I once had. I need to hear people who readily acknowledge problems, and who aren’t afraid to criticize but who maintain their faith. If the bloggernacle was limited to expressions of faith and testimony without those kinds of comments, it would be irrelevant to me. That is because my experience is so much different from your experience. God does not answer my prayers. I have tried and tried and tried what you suggest. Nothing. No response. I think that the best hope for somebody like me is to hear from people who also struggle with the same issues. It just doesn’t help to hear you tell me that God can be counted on to answer, when my lived experience contradicts that. Pure expressions of faith and testimony are fine for some, but they no longer touch me.
lostfaith–
I appreciate your comment. I’ve had a few others express the same thing about the bloggernacle being a source of strength to them when experiencing the challenges you relate.
I’d like to know more about your situation. If you ever want to contact me please use my email address.
diligentlyseek@gmail.com
I really don’t see how constant criticism of how the Church is run, seeking out ONLY the flaws and shortcomings of leaders and dismissing anything positive said as “brainwashed”, or insisting that the Church is obligated to set policy by what is fashionable worldly philosophy is at all uplifting or faith-promoting.
The “critical thinkers” do need to consider the effect their fault-finding and “see how much smarter I am for not operating on faith” outlook has on people who might well be in need of some support for faith, and instead get “only an idiot actually believes what the leadership of the Church says”, as I see all over the bloggernacle.
accentuate the positive, Jared! Not everything out there is a nefarious scheme to destroy testimonies.
Steve–thanks for coming by and commenting. You’re always welcome.
Jared
There is less faith talk than intellect talk in some quarters of the Bloggernacle (maybe even on-line, in general(?)) And there is a natural rancor between the two groups. (If one side thinks the other is throw-back primitives and in the other direction, the thinking is that the other side is “Mormons by culture only,” there isn’t much compromise possible. In fact, I’ve this theory that the less-”faith heavy” portion of the Mormon blogosphere portends an evolution into a separate strain of Internet Mormons (or just a broader spectrum in general Mormonism, or both).) ((Hey, if my off-the-cuff ramble here is too off-topic, I really won’t mind if you delete it. Really!) In any case, good luck with your project. I personally greatly respect you and applaud your efforts.
I appreciate your message here, Jared. It has taken a while for the concept to sink in, but I’ve finaly come to realize that the ‘nacle should be approached like anything else in life. If I can feel the Spirit while reading particular blogs, then there is likely something worthwhile there. If, on the other hand, they contribute to a spirit of contention, doubt, or rebellion against God’s order, they should be left alone. With some popular ‘nacle bloggers seeming to advocate outright apostacy, I guess there are sites I will just have to do without.
Jared, I don’t see Ardis as someone who actively seeks out the praise of the Bloggernacle. She is one of the most selfless and giving people I know on the Bloggernacle.
She is popular because she writes excellent posts and is a fine historian. She can find just about any old document or article related to the Church. I am pleased that to have someone of her caliber as part of the Bloggernacle.
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Brian–I agree 100% with you. She is indeed a blessing.
Jared
Steve,
No. But some things are.
I’ve always wondered about the wolves in sheep’s clothing. Do they know they are wolves, or having worn the clothing for so long do they actually think they are sheep? If it is possible that the wolves think they are sheep, I should ask myself, thinking I’m a sheep am I actually a wolf.
Maybe a couple reflections. First, it says the wolves actual desire is to devour the flock. But it may be subtle enough that is difficult to detect in ourselves. So a second reflection may be helpful. The other is the statement in John where it says that His (Christ’s) sheep ‘hear His voice, harden not their hearts, and come unto Him.’ It is well asking ourselves all the time if we are actually in the process of doing that. If not, then chances are we are no better than neutral.~
Steve Evans,
Oh, yeah?!?!?! How do you explain posts like this one? I rest my case.
Wow. I’ve hung around the bloggernacle for going on five years now, but the one I know is a lot different from the one that is described here.
Can someone please point me in the direction of this online place where there is “constant criticism of how the church is run”, or where people are “seeking ONLY the flaws and shortcomings of leaders”? Sure, there is some occasional griping about policies and practices, but no more than I hear eavery Sunday in bishopric and PEC meetings.
I do not believe there is a single site in the entire bloggernacle where the claim is made that “only an idiot actually believes what the leadership of the Church says”, and until someone can point such a site out to me, I believe that those who are making such accusations are engaged in an act of bearing false witness.
Until somebody here can back up these accusations, I will conclude that the imaginary bloggernacle in their heads is a reflection of their own pickle-sucking and bears no relationship to reality. Geez people. Have a little charity.
BTW, I just noticed this:
Isn’t that what those who support dwindling faith or faithlessness are doing, and are applauded for doing so by those of like mind.
Jared, you know next to nothing about me, so your claim that I support dwindling faith or faithlessness is really quite astounding. I like stories about faith and overcoming through Christ as much as anybody, and I often find them to be personally useful. I sugggest that you stop and seriously consider the possibility that it isn’t your message, but the way you present it, which accounts for your reception by many in the bloggernacle.
And now I’ve gone and done something (again) which I had resolved not to do: overreact, and make my overreaction public in the comments of a blog.
I apologize to anyone I have offended, and especially to you, Jared. I appreciate your reminders to exercise faith, it is a message I need to hear often.
Mark Brown, I am shocked and offended!! Nay, appalled and offended. Get thee behind me!!
Mark Brown–
The purpose of my blog is to encourage church members to fulfill their baptism covenant and acquire the gift of the Holy Ghost. I think you will find that the majority of my post are directed to that message.
On occasion, I will write about my general perception of the Bloggernacle. Go to the categories on this blog and click “Precepts of Men”. There you will find a few post I’ve put together over the last few years regarding the ‘nacle.
I received quite a bit of feed back on these post and there are many who agree with my observations. And of course, there are those who disagree.
I see my messages as invitation to do better, not and as indictment.
The Lord as given church members many warnings via the scripture and the prophets to not treat lightly those things He has given to us as a people. The Book of Mormon is one example (D&C 84:54-57).
When I read scripture like the one above and then read post on the most popular blogs I come away a little disappointed. And there are many others who feel the same way.
Thanks for your comments.
I just read your last comment. Thanks for your kind words–Mark.
Jared, regarding my comment and your response yesterday, the link I posted should not have the ending parenthesis. Here’s the correct link: http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2582#comment-97137
manaen—thanks for updating the link.
I’m going to mention a particular post (see link below) I read this week that was the catalyst for writing “Bloggernacle Stories of Lost Faith”.
I find this post to be a typical example in the Bloggernacle of telling a story about how faith is lost, or diminished.
Note the absence of any pleadings with Heavenly Father, on Dan’s part, to resolve the devastating impact the issues of church history had on him.
This kind of story, in reality is a testimony, and is common in the Bloggernacle. I’m OK with that.
The question I have is: where are the other stories, stories of members who have had the opposite experience–finding God when they had a crisis of faith?
I’ve posted a few on this blog. Under categories see “Example of Faith”.
I particularly like the one about a Rhodes Scholar struggle with testimony, and how he resolved it. See May 10, 2008.
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http://mormonmatters.org/2009/08/03/apostate-someone-who-fails-to-honor-his-own-conscience/#comments
I can’t speak for other blogs or bloggers, but I do write at one of the bigger nacle blogs. I don’t see support for some of the criticisms offered here.
For instance, Seannette writes that nacle blogs engage in “dismissing anything positive said as ‘brainwashed.’” That’s not the bloggernacle I know. But just to be sure, I checked a few numbers. And now, channelling Ziff:
The word “brainwashed” has been used a total of 3 times in T&S posts. These posts absolutely do not support the argument that the description is used to dismiss positive aspects of the church. It was used by S. Snyder in http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/09/healing-the-breach-between-feminists-and-non-feminists/ , where she writes that one should not call LDS women brainwashed. It’s used by Gordom Smith in a history of Mitt Romney, here: http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/07/mitt-romney-for-president/ . And it’s used by me in a post evaluating the claim (made on another website) that “Brigham Young was a reptilian shape-shifter that totally brainwashed founder Joseph Smith,” here: http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/05/shape-shifting-lizards-could-they-be-in-iyouri-ward/ .
The word brainwashed has been used a total of 35 times in T&S comments (there are over 10,000 comments in T&S history). *One* of these comments meets Seannete’s description. It’s a drive-by, one-time comment from a random hater. (We usually delete those comments, but I guess this one was missed.) It’s at http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/07/utah-mormons/#comment-36123 . It’s the only comment that commenter ever made at T&S.
Other than that comment, I could not locate a single instance of a comment on T&S in which the word “brainwashed” was used to criticize the church.
The last 10 comments with the word “brainwashed” in them read, in relevant part:
Katie: “And I’ve embraced more of my gender role. And it’s a nice feeling. Maybe it’s just a nice feeling because society has brainwashed me into feeling that way. But it works.”
Manean: [quotes jonovitch]
Jonovitch: “The best response I can think of for abstinence, coffee, R-rated movies, etc., is simply “it’s a personal choice based on religious beliefs.” Short, simple, accurate, and covers all the bases. As an added bonus, it’s much less zealous/brainwashed than the trite “I can’t, I’m a Mormon” excuse.”
Matt G [discussing song lyrics]: “Thankfully, due to Ben Stiller, now whenever I hear “Relax”, I think of Derek Zoolander attempting to attack the Malaysian prime minister with his crazy runway moves, after being brainwashed by Mugato. Sometimes pop culture can counteract itself!”
Kylie: ” We weren’t homeschooled but we did spend a lot of time together. I guess FHE could have seemed artificial, except that most of the rest of our time together was working or recreation. So one formal lesson time didn’t seem out of line. I think because my parents did it from the get-go, we were brainwashed. It never occurred to me to have a bad attitude or refuse to participate or anything like that because FHE was just what we had always done. And I think it’s great that you have no trouble with personal boundaries. I hope that quality isn’t as rare as I think it is!”
Craig H.: “To suggest that my brand of tolerance (which if you’ll read carefully isn’t tolerance, it’s more than that) ignores basic religious principles is beyond me, because as far as I’m concerned the whole inspiration for wanting to do this comes from how I view the gospels of the NT and other scripture. No doubt I’ve been duped and brainwashed and am completely reading it wrong, which you’re free to think. But in my view I think you’re imposing your own fears and worldviews on what I’ve said.”
Russell: “One of the deep problems here is that what most of us Mormons see, for historical reasons, as perhaps a disturbing and distasteful but not necessarily awful religious/marriage/sexual practice, other people see as a predatory crime. Of course you’ve got to remove all the kids, these people say; you can’t trust the mothers, who obviously have been brainwashed or beaten-down (both suppositions I personally find quite reasonable, by the way) by the patriarchs who control their lives–you’ve got to break up the families, the same way you’d send the state in a break up a family next door where a child is being beaten and raped. Even if the charge proves to be false, you’ve got to do the utmost to protect the vulnerable, the inexperienced, the young, until you’re absolutely sure, and offer them a chance to escape in the meantime.”
bfwebster: ” it feeds into the myths of Mormon ’sheep’, the oppressive Mormon hierarchy and Mormon anti-intellectualism. Here’s what really scares both the secular left and the religious right about Mormons: we’re well-educated, generally successful at life, and yet really believe all these ‘weird’ things that we purportedly believe. (Do a Google on “Mormons weird” — 600,000+ hits). Both the left and the right think we’re all brainwashed (Google ‘Mormons brainwashed’: 228,000 hits). Of course, anyone who has ever served in a bishopric laughs at the concept of Mormon sheep.”
James Fox [to Russell]: “I only know that those years when we had you and your siblings at home the memories are sweet and endearing. I would not change those years in any way, not that we were perfect parents, but we so dearly loved each of you and you must have felt that love, because you seemed to accept our shortcomings and returned our love. One thing, however, how did you ever become our family’s liberal. I truly brainwashed you every chance I had towards a right wing, out and out capitalist, oh how I failed as your father. Our other mistake was that we encouraged each child to THINK for themselves, awe a miscalculation, even though the brainwashing did take with your siblings, I think. However all this said we would not change you for the world as you keep family gatherings from becoming boring. ”
Adam Greenwood: “Its OK for lots of people to disagree with you without them being brainwashed robots. Maybe you’re just wrong.”
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I don’t read every blog in the world, and it’s possible that Seannette’s description is an accurate summary of some nacle blog. But it doesn’t sound like an accurate description of the blogs I know; and my Ziffian statistical analysis shows that the specific claims of critically referring to members or the church as “brainwashed” does not apply to T&S. I suspect that similar stats would come from many other blogs as well.
Kaimi, thanks for Ziffing “brainwashed” and thereby adding another word to our Bloggernacle vocabulary: the verb “Ziff,” meaning to analyze the use of a word, concept, or website statistically or by way of a word-count analysis.
My Ziffing of Keepa shows a single use of the word “brainwashed” here, reporting a nutty 19th century Eastern belief “that Brigham Young was fabulously wealthy, his fortune built by squeezing tithing from legions of brainwashed Mormons.” Since the post goes on to show how Brigham Young dealt with letter writers who held that opinion, and shows Brigham Young as being anything but the gullible fool those Easterners thought he was, my use of that word arguably goes against the claim made in comment #1.
Kaimi and Ardis–
The purpose of my post, “Bloggernacle Stories of Lost Faith” was not about the word “brainwashed”. So I can’t respond to the work you’ve put into using Ziffing (neat program) on your sites.
I welcome your comments and thoughts, nonetheless.
There are many in the ‘nacle who are concerned about the drag on faith they feel when they read the most popular blogs. I don’t think these observations are totally without merit.
I’ve mentioned one post (above) that I feel is an example of what I mean. And I will be sure to make it clear that I am not suggesting that stories of lost faith be eliminated. My question is: Where are the stories that increase faith?
I wonder what the results would be if a survey was taken of the post from each of your blogs, say for the last year, and checked against a faith promoting scale of some kind.
I would suggest a very basic scale like the first principles of the gospel and the Book of Mormon be used.
If a survey of this type were completed then you would have and idea of what kind of balance exist in each of your blogs.
Kaimi–
I went to your very find site and used Search, I typed in the following:
“Fire and the Holy Ghost” I got one hit from Feb 2005
“Doctrine of Christ” I got six hits.
“Conversion Story” I got 13 hits.
It is not my intent to become a judge and jury of any of the blogs. I don’t like doing what I just did with a quick survey of your blog. If you review my post you will note that I have only spoken in general terms about the bloggernacle and have stayed away from focusing on any one blog. The only reason I am doing so now is to respond to your comments.
I hope you’re not offended. If you are I will remove this comment at your request.
As covenant members of Christ restored church we have an obligation to build faith. How we do it is up to us, but the Book of Mormon makes it clear the Lord will judge each of us for our works.
When the day comes that I stand before the Lord to be judged for what I’ve done with my small efforts in the ‘nacle, I want be found as one who used the words of the scriptures and the living prophets in a manner that helped others to increase faith and come to Christ.
To “lostfaith”;
It could be that what you now feel as being your ‘lost faith’ is actually a function of being so accustomed to the companionship of the Holy Spirit that it is ‘second nature’ to you. Our Father in Heaven may not be answering your prayers because from His perspective (looking into the depths of your heart) He sees a valid and living faith. Sometimes for us to grow beyond our comfort zone, He needs to withdraw from us and let us peddle on our own. That is the only way we will develop the balance we will need to carry us through the remainder of our life. Once we have mastered our balance He will often return and we will enjoy a gift(s) of the Spirit as a confirmation that He is pleased with our growth and the exercise of our increased faith. This has been my experience through some of my darkest hours (and their have been many) when I thought as you do that my faith was lost and that my Father in Heaven was indifferent to me. My sin was failing to heed the counsel, “Doubt not, fear not.”
From the experiences in my life, I can best describe the manifestations of the Spirit as similar to driving down a semi-rural road in one of the eastern states late at night. As I look forward down the road I can see that widely spaced street lights illuminate portions of the road but also that there are wide, and often varying, stretches of road that are in darkness. Proceeding down the road I grip the wheel axiously through the dark stretches hoping not to hit a deer or a pothole and as I approach the circle of light cast by the streetlight I feel myself relax. The light assures me that I can travel safely through this area because I can see where I am going and what’s immediately ahead. A short time later I pass out of the circle of light to traverse the next dark stretch of road and the old cautions and fears return. But this time I feel a little more confident and safe because I have seen a portion of the road and know a little more about it.
Some Saints have a greater need for more street lights than others in their lives. Sometimes we mis-interpret that dark stretches of road as abandonment, but as we look further down the road towards our destination we can see that the power is still on and that the light still shines. Heavenly Father could flood the roads of our life with more light than a freeway interchange, but then what use would there be for our faith or free agency?
There are many like you, lost faith, who think that you have been abandoned and that the heavens are sealed from your prayers. But I think that in many of these cases, you don’t give yourself much credit for the inherent spiritual strength that you already have. Press on, brother! Be faithful and loyal and fulfill your responsibilities and commitments. Continue to pray and be content to let God choose the moment when He will answer you. From the way you have described your family, I must say that you sound incredibly blessed. I know many parents here who would give anything to say that all of their children have become a new generation of faithful Saints. I wish you well and will pray for us both so that we can endure to the end and prove ourselves worthy to stand on the Savior’s right side.
Jared, you said: “My question is: Where are the stories that increase faith?”
First of all, one of the things that increases my faith the most when I spend time in the ‘nacle is that I find myself among lots of smart people that know all about the unusual (or even unsavory) parts of our history and it doesn’t shake their faith. I love being in the company of people whose love for the Church and whose faith in Christ is not dependent on acting as if certain things (like polygamy, the priesthood ban, etc.) never existed, or as if the Church never encounters problems. When I first discovered the bloggernacle, just as I was beginning to learn more about the Church history from an intellectual/historical standpoint, I was so gratified and refreshed and strengthened to see the wide-eyed faith of so many bright, smart, funny, kind, complex, faithful people.
That brings me to my second point. Most of the people whose posts I read in the ‘nacle are faithful, yet sometimes confront uncomfortable or difficult subjects. Yes, some people lose faith when they confront such subjects. But some people only maintain their faith by avoiding such subjects (and then if they do encounter those subjects later, in a less-than-supportive environment, they may be ill-equipped to maintain their faith). Neither of those types of people is a model for faith that I want to emulate.
Third, in a more direct answer to your question, “Where are the stories that increase faith?”
They are all over the place! Wonderful history (even if it’s complex or problematic), beautiful stories of everyday domestic moments or touching events within a ward or church meeting, stories of people overcoming challenging situations (sometimes difficult, but REAL, situations within the Church organization), missionary stories, birth stories, death stories. Lively political arguments that demonstrate the diversity of thought that is possible among the faithful. Every single word written by Wilfried Decoo.
Finally, I think the phrases you ziffed were rather less telling than Kaimi’s–suggesting to me that perhaps you arrived at the conclusion before you went looking for the evidence.
I don’t think I have ever used the words “Fire and the Holy Ghost” to describe a situation in which I felt the Spirit.
I don’t think I’ve ever used the phrase “Doctrine of Christ” in discussing my feelings about the atonement, with anyone, in any forum.
And as for “Conversion Story.” Well, most of the conversion stories I’ve read on the bloggernacle started with something rather my poetic than “Okay, here’s my conversion story.”
I hope I don’t sound to strident in saying that that seems like a rather disingenuous ziffing.
(I go to Urban Dictionary and contribute the Bloggernacle definition for “ziff”, then order mug with it on it and take it down to the post office and mail it to ziff of Zelophehad’s Daughters.) http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/author/ziff/
Jeremy–
Thanks for your comment. Many things you said get to the heart of the concern I have with the Bloggernacle.
You said, “I love being in the company of people whose love for the Church and whose faith in Christ is not dependent on acting as if certain things (like polygamy, the priesthood ban, etc.) never existed, or as if the Church never encounters problems.”
I agree, at least in part, with your sentiment. I’ve enjoyed many thoughtful post in the ‘nacle that have helped me better understand some of the problems that exist in church history. However, the Lord instructs us to learn and use the doctrines contained in the Book of Mormon to draw near unto to Him. This is where the Bloggernacle is letting church members down. The gospel is not being taught or supported as it could be.
You said, “…some people lose faith when they confront such subjects. But some people only maintain their faith by avoiding such subjects…Neither of those types of people is a model for faith that I want to emulate.”
I’ve learned by experience that the best way to maintain faith is to follow the Lord’s counsel. We’re taught to read the Book of Mormon and ask the Lord in the name of Jesus Christ if it is true (Moroni 10:4-5). If we follow the Lord’s counsel we will be given a witness by the power of the Holy Ghost. This witness will do more to help us maintain our faith than anything else we can do.
I asked where are the stories that increase faith. You answered, “They are all over the place! Wonderful history (even if it’s complex or problematic), beautiful stories of everyday domestic moments or touching events within a ward or church meeting, stories of people overcoming challenging situations… missionary stories, birth stories, death stories.”
I agree, there are many beautiful things written, just as you outlined. I enjoy reading them as well.
The concern I have, is that they are generally testifying of moral and ethic principles. Moral and ethical principles are wonderful, but they are not equivalent to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Another way of saying this is to use an analogy with the three degrees of glory. The moral and ethical teachings are the equivalent of the terrestrial glory, while the doctrine of Christ is the equivalent of the celestial glory. In the language of the Lord, speaking of those who obtain the terrestrial glory instead of the celestial, “These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.”
Lastly, you feel I was trying to stack the deck on the searches. I merely took a few key phrases from the Book of Mormon, and the term “conversion, to make a point.
Church members who are seeking the Lord diligently will have the companionship of the Holy Ghost, they will testify of their experiences with the HG. They will be filled with gratitude to the Lord for the blessings they have received. They will use the scriptures and the words of the living prophets when they speak and write. They will be familiar with the gifts of the Spirit, will seek the face of the Lord, and encourage others to do the same.
When those who possess the Spirit encounter the challenges of fallible members, church leaders, and church history they will not be confounded (D&C 49:27). They will not be deceived (D&C 46:8), but will be comforted (D&C 98:1), succored (D&C 62:1), and blessed with understanding (2 Nephi 31:3).
I am not addressing this subject from an academic point of view, but as one who has experienced the things I have written about.
Thanks again for coming by and commenting.
Jared,
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I think it’s quite likely that I’m not the only one who doesn’t write in a style that you would find appropriately faith-affirming because I’m SHY about spiritual things, and I think they’re more appropriately spoken of in testimony meeting or (like today) in teaching my Sunday School class. I would never bear my testimony online to strangers who have no context for understanding it.
There are actually plenty of scriptural injunctions against the public display of spiritual things–how many prophets say “but these things cannot be written” or something similar? Jesus spoke in parables on many occasions when a more direct style would have been confusing or off-putting to his audience.
Maybe if we retitled some of our posts, you’d be more able to find the faith-affirming ones. Consider:
The Parable of the Plumber–http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/07/26/prayer-and-the-plumber/
The Parable of the Patient Mother–http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/08/02/for-my-son-on-his-18th-birthday/
The Parable of the Mammogram, the Cub Scout, the Laxatives, and the Chocolate Pretzels–http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/08/02/for-my-son-on-his-18th-birthday/
Epistle from Alexandria–http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/07/some-thoughts-on-how-to-approach-a-new-place/#more-8973
The Parable of the Pioneer Chef–http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/?p=2597
The Parable of the Good Agnostic, Atheist, and Gay Samaritans–http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/08/the-good-samaritan-as-the-other/
Those are just a few examples of posts that have prompted reflection and spiritual renewal and growth for me, from the last couple of weeks. Is it possible that your criteria for what counts as “spiritual” are too narrow? After all, the article of faith says “if there is ANYTHING virtuous, lovely…” Those seem like pretty broad parameters. As Brigham Young said, “let us not narrow ourselves up.”
Kristine–
I had already read most of the post you listed. I enjoyed them. I think there great and are certainly praise worthy.
You spoke of being narrow and contracted in ones point of view and suggested that may be what I am doing.
Actually, this is my concern with the Bloggernacle. Please try to understand where I’m coming from by reading on.
At the beginning of your comment you mentioned several reasons for not expressing things of the Spirit in the ‘nacle:
1. Shy
2. Should be done at church in Sunday School or a testimony meeting
3. Scriptural injunction against the public display of spiritual things
4. The Savior speaking in parables
5. Prophets say “but these things cannot be written”
Heavenly Father teaches the following:
1&2
But with some I am not well pleased, for they will not open their mouths, but they hide the talent which I have given unto them, because of the fear of man. D&C 60:2
Behold, do men light a candle and put it under a bushel? Nay, but on a candlestick, and it giveth light to all that are in the house
3 Nephi 12:15
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3 & 4
For it is not meet that the things which belong to the children of the kingdom should be given to them that are not worthy, or to dogs, or the pearls to be cast before swine. D&C 41:6
I don’t feel the Bloggernacle fits this definition
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5
…mine eyes have beheld great things, yea, even too great for man; therefore I was bidden that I should not write them. 2 Nephi 4:25
There are certainly things the Lord revealed to the prophets that shouldn’t be shared, but I don’t feel that includes the first principles and ordinances of the gospel. If you read my post you will note most of them deal with the very basics of the gospel.
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The point I am making is that I would like to see more testimony, more scriptures, more sharing of how the first principles and ordinances of the gospel have brought the promised blessings into the lives of Latter Day Saints. I don’t think we should be shy about acknowledging and thanking the Lord for blessings received.
I feel the most popular blogs in the Bloggernacle are too narrow, the culture that has developed in the some of these blogs restricts sharing of the things of the Spirit.
Now with that said, I am not indicting, belittling, being condescending, and the like. I am concerned.
I enjoy the Bloggernacle and feel that there are many wonderful church members here.
Thanks for commenting.
So we both have scriptural support for our ideas, and we just have different preferences for how the bloggernacle should be. I can live with that.
Kristine–
I enjoyed your comments and kindness. Thanks for coming by.
Jared,
I really appreciate what you are trying to say/do.
John Dehlin–
Thanks for coming by and leaving such an encouraging message.
I’m aware of some of the many contributions you’ve made to the ‘nacle.
The best to you has you go on to a new effort.
I’ll be looking forward to following your doings. I hope we can have other opportunities to discuss the things of the Spirit.
I also appreciate your efforts, Jared. I’ve been around the blogs for a while, and I’ve noticed that you present a point of view that is needed and appreciated. I don’t think you get the respect you deserve sometimes, sharing a message that is gospel-centered and faith promoting. You are always polite, even when the comments left for you are not so courteous.
I admire you very much for this. Thanks!
Jana H–
You’re very kind. Thanks for taking the time to comment.
Three years later, here comes my comment: I totally one hundred percent agree with you, Jared. I am very careful to avoid some bloggers and blogs. I need clarity and I need to be uplifted. You and R Gary are my favorites.