LDS Alive in Christ …declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost.

1. 

   R. Gary
   February 19th, 2010 - 05:15

   Jared, I think your first quiz statement is true. Nephi is talking about being saved. Yes, we may receive grace at any time, regardless of personal effort. But there is a difference between receiving grace and being saved by grace. I believe we are saved by grace “only” (click here) after all we ourselves can do.

   I think your second quiz statement is also true, although the wording is a little ambiguous. We’re taught to “Pray as if everything depended on the Lord, and then work as if everything depended on you” (click here). The key word (for me) is “expect.” We can’t expect God’s help without effort on our part. He may help us anyway, but we can’t expect it.

   My links to the Church’s web site are just my way of showing why I hold certain beliefs. I don’t expect you or anyone else to believe as I do.
2. 

   Tony
   February 19th, 2010 - 09:17

   Thanks for that Gary. You know, I really agree with you, and that talk by Bruce C. Hafen was really right to the point in my opinion.

   The way I see it is, we are continually applying atoning grace into our lives, and in the end, when we still fall short, the Savior will make up what we lack, and thus throughout that whole process we truly will have been saved by grace, though it no doubt took some effort on our part. But Christ was there with us from the very beginning. If it weren’t for His atoning sacrifice in the first place, all of it would have been to no avail. Thus, we will always be indebted to Him for that.
3. 

   Jared
   February 20th, 2010 - 19:30

   R. Gary and Tony–

   I enjoyed reading your comments.

   Discussions on grace and work can be like trying to nail Jello to the wall.

   It reminds me of the optical illusions we’ve all seen. There are two pictures, depending on how you look at it; in one famous picture, both and old and young women can be seen.

   “…for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”

   In this verse of scripture, the word “after” can be thought of in two ways:

   1. after we’ve done all we can do, then grace kicks in.
   2. we are saved by grace apart from all we can do.

   Note: See, Believing Christ, by Stephen E. Robinson, page 91.

   The word “we” can also be thought of in two ways:

   1. we, as in you and me
   2. we, as in each of us with Jesus

   Note: See, The Continuous Atonement, by Brad Wilcox, p. 114.

   There have been times in my life when I thought I was pulling the load by myself. Just when my strength was about to give out the Lord’s blessings finally came. Then there have been times when I started out with the attitude, saying: I wonder when the Lord will help? Then almost at the same moment, the way was opened by the Lord, and I had clear sailing through the difficulty without much effort on my part.

   I’ve concluded that we need to be busy doing all that we reasonably can to advance ourselves in things of the Spirit, constantly seeking to fulfill our baptism covenant wherein we gain a remission of our sins. See D&C 13:1, 19:31, Moroni 8:25-26.
4. 

   R. Gary
   February 21st, 2010 - 18:22

   Jared, you are correct. You and your sources (Stephen E. Robinson and Brad Wilcox and Elder Bruce C. Hafen) as you’ve quoted them are all correct. I believe you. By God’s grace alone, we live every moment of every day, “for in him we live, and move, and have our being” (Acts 17:28). He lends us our every breath that we “may live and move” and He supports us “from one moment to another” (Mosiah 2:21).

   But there are additional (and not competing) interpretations of 2 Nephi 25:23. For example, President James E. Faust, in the October 2001 general conference said grace is activated after all we can do. According to this view, the word “after” is time related.

   “After all we can do to pay to the uttermost farthing and make right our wrongs, the Savior’s grace is activated in our lives through the Atonement, which purifies us and can perfect us. (See 2 Ne. 25:23; Alma 34:15–16; 42:22–24; Moro. 10:32–33.)” (Ensign, Nov. 2001, p.21.)

   Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Harold B. Lee contains a similar point of view.

   “(2 Nephi 25:23.) Truly we are redeemed by the atoning blood of the Savior of the world, but only after each has done all he can to work out his own salvation.” (p.5.)

   “(2 Nephi 25:23.) The Savior’s blood, His atonement, will save us, but only after we have done all we can to save ourselves by keeping His commandments.” (p.24.)

   “Spiritual certainty that is necessary to salvation must be preceded by a maximum of individual effort. Grace, or the free gift of the Lord’s atoning power, must be preceded by personal striving. Repeating again what Nephi said, ‘By grace … we are saved, after all we can do.’ [2 Nephi 25:23.] ” (p.198.)

   pre-ced-ed v.tr. 1. To come, exist, or occur before in time.

   President Boyd K. Packer affirms that “the grace of God promised in the scriptures comes only ‘after all we can do’ (2 Ne. 25:23).” (New Era, April 2005, p.4.)

   “The truth is,” said President Marion G. Romney, “that we are saved by grace only after all we ourselves can do. (See 2 Ne. 25:23.)” (Ensign, Nov. 1976, p.123.)

   “Does [2 Nephi 25:23] mean that after we’ve done all we can do, then grace will kick in?”

   In the sense you have in mind in your survey, the answer is no.

   In the sense I’m thinking about in my comments, the answer is yes.

   Let me state again, very clearly, that I agree with you and your sources. This comment is not intended to show that anyone is mistaken about anything. But even when we are convinced that we’ve nailed the Jello to the wall, there might still be some Jello that was overlooked.
5. 

   Jared
   February 23rd, 2010 - 20:57

   R. Gary–

   Thank you for contributing to this important topic. I agree with everything you’ve contributed.

   As I’ve considered the difficulty of properly stating the relationship of grace and works, I recall a religion teacher emphasizing the importance of not reading a scripture in isolation. He taught the importance of reading many scripture on a topic in order to gain proper understanding. For example, if I were to read Mosiah 2:41 (and similar passages) I could conclude that when we keep the commandments we will thereafter, without interruption, prosper both temporally and spiritually (I’ve known church members who feel that way).

   And moreover, I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven, that thereby they may dwell with God in a state of never–ending happiness. Mosiah 2:41)

   In order to avoid error, we need to realize that gospel doctrine is like a coin, it has two sides (in other words, it is not one dimensional). The companion doctrine to Mosiah 2:41 can be found in many places, for example, Mosiah 23:21 says:

   Nevertheless the Lord seeth fit to chasten his people; yea, he trieth their patience and their faith. Mosiah 23:21

   When these two verses of scripture are brought together then we begin to know the ways of the Lord.

   The Lord will have a blessed and tried people.

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